same way plagiarism and infringement, I understand, in all other countries, and why should American authors be the exception? If every other nation on earth should grant that right to a man, why should we refuse it to him?

Mr. HAMMER. In other countries writers can not express themselves on any subject like they can in America; there is not the same freedom of speech. In protecting yourselves against the radio, you silence them. Anything that anybody writes could not be used unless they were permitted to do so. That is true; it would silence everyone and everything in the country; there would not be any radio, unless they bought the privilege, because everything published would be copyrighted.

Mr. BUCK. Don't you believe in copyright?

Mr. HAMMER. Certainly, I believe in it, but I do not believe in a law that would keep radio from giving out everything published, that was actually copyrighted with notice, and this would do that. Mr. Buck. This is a free country.

Mr. HAMMER. You would not only silence the radio, but you would silence the newspaper; the land would be in darkness; the light would be shut off. I am for your bill, but it must be modified in ceartin respects.

Mr. BLOOM. You do not object to anything else in this outside of that fact?

Mr. HAMMER. I did not say that.

Mr. BLOOM. In reference to this particular thing, outside of the fact you would like to have the word "copyright" in there.

Mr. HAMMER. That is one thing.

Mr. BLOOM. Whether it is a song or literary article or anything else, the one thought in your mind here is, should you eliminate putting on there notice to the world.

Mr. HAMMER. I have other thoughts; I said that was one thought I had.

Mr. BLOOм. I mean with reference to this language; is that the idea?

Mr. HAMMER. No, sir; that is not the idea; that is the chief objection I see now. There is not any doubt but that our copyright laws need great changes. Mr. Solberg has very wide and extensive knowledge about this legislation.

Mr. BLOOM. If you had lived among these people the way I have for 35 years you would find out the way they have been suffering. Mr. WEFALD. The principle underlying this bill that you are all interested in, as I understand, is to protect the creator or the author any sort of work?

of

Mr. BUCK. Yes, sir.

Mr. WEFALD. That is the whole principle underlying this bill.

Mr. BUCK. That is it.

Mr. WEFALD. At the present time, they are not protected.
Mr. BUCK. No; they are not protected at present.

Mr. WEFALD. This bill is designed to protect them.

Mr. Buck. Some of our opponents will prove that.

Mr. WEFALD. If the bill needs amendment, that is a matter for this committee to look into, but the real principle underlying the bill is to protect the creative agencies of the country in art, etc.

Mr. Buck. That is all we ask.

Mr. HAMMER. Your idea of protecting the creative agencies is to shut everybody's mouth and let the authors live in darkness. Mr. BUCK. I would like to answer that.

Mr. HAMMER. I do not mean to abrupt.

Mr. BUCK. At no time in the history of the world from the days of Greece, which we look upon as the seat of culture, has it ever been said that any man or anything pertaining to art and science did anything but contribute to it, and, gentlemen, there never was a thought of shutting off the light to anyone.

Mr. HAMMER. Do you not admit that you do shut it off? Everything published under this law is copyrighted, without applications to any agency or any department of the Government for protection. Mr. BUCK. That does not stop the distribution; that does not stop the publication of works; that does not stop the theaters from playing; that does not stop the radio.

Mr. HAMMER. No; unless they pay you your price. Do you not think that if we give all the protection you ask we ought to have something like the Interstate Commerce Commission to regulate prices?

Mr. BUCK. If you think that the men who appeared before you to-day

Mr. HAMMER (interposing). They are just like others.

Mr. BUCK (continuing). Had any appearance of the James boys or Younger boys

Mr. HAMMER. No; they are just like other people.

Mr. REID. Except they are poor.

Mr. Buck. I do not think that goes to the man who contributes to the writing and thought; you are giving us the darkest side of this picture.

Mr. HAMMER. No doubt about that.

Mr. Buck. There is no question about it.

Mr. REID. I would like to ask a question when he is through.
Mr. BUCK. I am finished now.

Mr. REID. In your hearings heretofore, you stated that the radio did not help to advertise the authors.

Mr. Buck. I say it again now.

Mr. REID. IS John McCormack a small fellow?

Mr. Buck. No, sir.

Mr. REID. He has made a lot of money?

Mr. Buck. He has made a lot of money.

Mr. REID. He used the radio, did he not, to advertise?

Mr. Buck. He did.

Mr. REID. That is all.

Mr. BUCK. But I would like to tell you the real reason.

Mr. REID. That is sufficient; yes or no?

Mr. BUCK. Mr. Reid, I should like to be allowed to answer this question. I would like to answer it. Mr. Chairman, Mr. John McCormack, when asked why he sang over the radio said he sang as a personal favor to Mr. Childs, who was the president of the Victor Co., without any compensation whatsoever, for the man who had made so much money for him under contracts with the Victor Record Co.

Mr. REID. Is that your answer?

Mr. BUCK. That is Mr. McCormack's answer I am giving.
Mr. REID. He did it for advertising purposes.

The CHAIRMAN. Let us have order; I can not hear a word Mr. Reid is saying.

Mr. BUCK. That concludes what I wanted to say, and you have been very kind; you have been very considerate in listening to me, and I sincerely trust that consideration will be carried into your hearing.

I would like to present, Mr. Chairman, a man who is considered among song writers the greatest popular-song writer America has ever developed, the writer of over 150 song'hits; so if you take into consideration a song as strong as Yes, We Have No Bananas, the gentleman I am going to introduce you to now has written a hundred such songs. I present Mr. Harry Von Tilzer.

STATEMENT OF MR. HARRY VON TILZER, NEW YORK CITY.

Mr. VON TILZER. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I would like to have you listen to my argument. There was a remark made a few moments ago; in connection with that remark I would like to present to Congressman Reid a few of my songs-some 32 in one publication. I am a poor man; I do not own my own home. Mr. REID. I have a mortgage on mine.

Mr. VON TILZER. So have I—a first and second.

"

I started writing over 33 years ago, when I came to New York from Indiana in a little cattle car, with a load of horses, with $1.65 in my clothes. I came from the State of Indiana; I knew Mr. James Whitcomb Riley and some of the other figures in Indiana. I am not ashamed to say I never cared for money; I would have been a very rich man to-day if I knew anything about the value of money; money never meant anything to me and never will.

There was a question asked a moment ago, of how much money Mr. Herbert made out of certain of his songs. I wrote a little song that went on the back of Yes, We have no Bananas, called "Old King Tut." I know nothing about business; that is the answer. On the back of this song Yes, We Have no Bananas was my song Old King Tut. One of the employees of one of these companies that was putting the song out said to me, "You will get a pretty good statement; at least 50,000 or 60,000 records." I got 8,000 records; that was $160. Those people could not stay in their business and only sell that many records of a hit like Bananas. These other record concerns take business away from the Victor, Brunswick, and Columbia, who we know are on the level; they take away 50,000 or 60,000 or 100,000 records and we do not get a statement of the records they sell.

In 1902 I wrote 14 hits; 8 were ballad hits. I never got one cent, but still phonograph companies were making millions and millions. To-day, I can not get a number of mine on because I am not in position to go out and exploit the business. A man at my age ought to be in the prime of his life. I feel, if I had the means, although I do not care to exploit and publish my songs, when I first got in the business, men connected with me took it away. I was aggressive, and I wrote the songs. I sold some of the songs for $15, and two or 30335-251-6

three of the biggest I wrote, my name did not even go on them; I sold them for a certain amount of money and stuck it in my pocket.

Now it is this 2-cent record business that I want to get to. I can not understand the sentiment; they say there is no sentiment in the business end. Two years ago I went into business and lost a lot of money; a friend of mine put me in bankruptcy, where all my creditors would not have done it. They said "Forget what you owe us," but this friend did it, and he regretted it very much; it was done on the spur of the moment. I have no feeling in that, however. Do you think that is right? I, as a man who have not anything to-day would like to accumulate a little something; they give you flowers after you go, but I want to smell these flowers before I kick off. I want to tell you I have been thinking and sitting in my office; I owe two months' rent to-day, and still the landlord happens to be an old friend of mine

Mr. REID. You said there was no sentiment in the world.
Mr. VON TILZER. That is because he happens to like me.
Mr. REID. I like you too, up to date.

Mr. VON TILZER. I want to make a living in this business now; I want to appeal to your better nature, the better side of you, and say it is not only myself who is down here; I came here 16 years ago with Charlie Harris and Victor Herbert; we laid the money out to pay expenses; we fought and took this 2 cents because we had to take it, or we would not get anything. That is all I want to say. I am fighting for the younger boy who is coming along; and the younger girl; all I want to-day is to keep from going to the poorhouse; if this keeps on, I will go there.

As far as this copyright is concerned, we copyright all our songs; we have to copyright them to protect them; we have to copyright in Great Britain and the other countries every song we write, which we publish right away, whether we publish it in manuscript form or

not.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you any other witness?

Mr. BUCK. I would like to have the gentlemen of the committee hear a word from one of the older song writers, who is down here lending his humble efforts to the future of song writers in this country; he is very fortunate; he is in a little better position than Von Tilzer; I wish to introduce the man who wrote After the Ball, Mr. Charles K. Harris.

STATEMENT OF MR. CHARLES K. HARRIS

Mr. HARRIS. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I am in a sort of unique position here, as I talk from a great many anglesas a music publisher, as a lyric writer, music writer, a scenario writer, as well as a book writer. I remember when I wrote After the Ball; I was 18 years old; I sent for copyrights to Washington and I received them with a great deal of pleasure. I was not thinking at that time of England, Germany, France, and Italy; I thought America was enough for me, but if we had had the international copyright provision which we are down here for to-day, I would have cleared $100,000 more than I did. I received a letter from some very large publishers in London of our music, as well as publishers of English music, congratulating me upon the success of After the Ball, and hoping I would

continue to write some more like it, but I did not get one cent from England. Of course, experience came later. Naturally, when I wrote Break the News to Mother and Always in the Way, Hello, Central, Give Me Heaven, I then sent for copyrights to those countries. Í received other letters also thanking me, one from France, which stated that they sold over 100,000 copies, and congratulating me also, but not a cent did they send.

1

One more little incident; I do not wish to bore you. I came to Chicago during the World's Fair and I went into a phonograph store; in those days they had the little wax disks, and some of my Chicago friends-I lived in Milwaukee at that time-asked me if I could not secure for them some of those records, Always in the Way, and Break the News to Mother, and After the Ball, and I said I would try; so I went into large store I can see it in my mind's eye this afternoon--each side of the wall was lined with small boxes containing the different wax disks at that time. I said to the clerk "I would like to get a record of three songs, After the Ball, Break the News to Mother, and Always in the Way.' He said "So would we. I said "What do you mean?" He said "We are all out; we can not get them fast enough. He said "I will show you something, sonny." He showed me a photograph of a freight train, one side of which had a banner, Always in the Way and the other side After the Ball. It stated that that train contained 500,000 records to spread sunshine and music and happiness throughout the South, and with that freight-train load of all my stuff going down there, I did not get a cent, not one penny. I said, "What does Harris get out of this?" He said "He does not get any thing." I said Nothing?" He said "No." He said "Why should he?" I said "Why should he not?" He said "Why didn't he go to Washington and get a law to protect himself?" I said "Maybe he has not enough money." He said "That is not my business." He said "Let me take your name and I will send you the three records." I said "Charles K. Harris." He said "You are not kidding me?" I said "No." He said "I am sorry if I said anything out of the way." I said "That is all right. said "By jove, you ought to do something about that."' A few years after that time I came to New York, and 16 years ago we fought a battle, and I came to see our great President at that time, Mr. Roosevelt. I was granted an interview. Mr. Loeb said "He will give you five minutes, Mr. Harris." I said "That is enough." I came in and just as I was announced, Ambassador Rosen, the Russian ambassador, was announced, and the President said "Just a moment, Mr. Ambassador." He looked at me and he said "Well?" I said "Well." He says "What is it, Mr. Harris?" I said "I am here in behalf of twenty-five or thirty thousand authors and composers on this new copyright bill, that are too poor to come to Washington, and walking is pretty bad"; you could see a twinkle in his eye; when I explained to him the inroads of the mechanical on the sheet music, I will never forget, he pounded his desk and said "Do you mean to say you are not getting one cent?" I said "Not one cent, Mr. President."

He

There was no such instrument known in 1701 and 1800, under the old copyright law. We are now a new generation, so he sent me to see Senator Smoot and Chairman Currier, and I explained my