Senator CAPEHART. I do not believe so. I think what you have recommended is quite clear. You want to reverse the procedure. Mr. HUBBELL. Boiled down; yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.
Mr. HUBBELL. Thank you, gentlemen.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Henry, will you take the stand please?

You have filed a brief, I take it; and you have heard what I have said in advising witnesses that they should not cover again the material contained in their briefs.

STATEMENT OF BILL HENRY, PRESIDENT, RADIO CORRESPONDENTS' ASSOCIATION, WASHINGTON, D. C.

Mr. HENRY. Yes, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. You may proceed in your own way, then. I take it your brief sufficiently identifies you, and those for whom you speak. Mr. HENRY. Yes, sir, I think so.

I would like to call attention to the fact, Senator, if I may, that I make first a brief statement in my capacity as president of the Radio Correspondents' Association, which is an official statement for that association. Then I added to that a personal statement, in the belief that this committee would like to have a little personal experience from someone who is actively engaged in broadcasting, and who has been engaged in the broadcasting of news for a considerable period of time. In it, I point out the sympathy that I have for the purposes for which this particular section 18 was written, but pointing out also the very great difficulty of definitely establishing sources.

There are very many reasons that make it extremely difficult, and I wanted to assure the committee that this is not a subject that has worried the committee only. It has worried everybody who has been connected with news, I guess, ever since people have been engaged in passing information along from one person to another.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not feel that any of us can be very dogmatic about what we say in these hearings concerning these matters, but we do invite you take your gloves off and put on your brass knuckles and go through the bill.

Mr. HENRY. I am not an owner or proprietor of a broadcasting station or network. I can only speak as a reporter. That is my profession, and has been for 37 years. I wanted to emphasize the very great difficulty of identifying sources of news. The thought occurred to me while I was listening to the testimony of Dr. Armstrong just a moment ago, that if I were reporting the proceedings of this committee tonight, I would he not only justified but would feel perfectly proper in stating that Senator Tobey wished to know from Dr. Armstrong certain things, as to what had happened during the 4-year hiatus, the period that he mentioned.

But if I were required to state the source of my news, the best that I could say would be that Senator Johnson said that Senator Tobey wanted to know these various things.

Now, I am perfectly willing to say that, because that is exactly true. and I say that because I am perfectly willing to believe that Senator Johnson brought here some questions from Senator Tobey. My point is that in what we call fixing the source of the news, we are merely fixing responsibility.

I am perfectly willing to take the word of Senator Johnson that he has these questions from Senator Tobey. I don't know where Senator Tobey got the questions. I am merely willing, as a reporter, perfectly willing and perfectly satisfied, to take the responsibility for saying that Senator Tobey wanted to know those questions because I have great confidence in Senator Johnson.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Johnson, by and large, is a very reputable citizen.

Senator JOHNSON. Get that in the record, please.

Mr. HENRY. My point is that we very seldom get the real source of news. What we do is to get an organization or individual willing to take the responsibility for that news.

The CHAIRMAN. May I interrupt right there? So far as I played a part in the drafting of this legislation, and in these particular sections to which I anticipate you are going to refer, I was just groping. My prime purpose was to get to the American public accurate and truthful reports, and accurate and truthful comments; and that the public should know the sources.

That was what I was struggling for; and while I have no right to speak for them, I assume that is the general feeling of the members of the committee.

Mr. HENRY. Senator, I assure you that that is not only highly commendable, but it has been something that newspapers and news agencies as well as broadcasters have been trying to settle clearly over a very long period of time.

But as I pointed out, it is extremely difficult. You never do get the exact source of the news. I can say, for instance, today, that the source of my news is the Associated Press, or the United Press, or TransRadio. Any of these is highly reputable, and expert.

But actually, the source of my news is somebody way beyond that. The Associated Press secured a statement by means of some reporter who covered some event. That reporter turned it over to a telegraph man, who telegraphed it some place. It goes through a copy desk. It is handled by editors. It is rewritten. But what emerges is a piece of information that the Associated Press is not only willing to take the responsibility for, but is very proud to do it.

And like all those organizations, it is an extremely reputable and experienced organization.

All that has been done, however, is to find someone to take the responsibility for that piece of news. And what radio has discovered is that because of many reasons, the fact that your time is limited, and so on, about the best thing that radio can do is to introduce the individual who speaks, and who is giving a news broadcast, and say: This is John Jones speaking and representing the So-and-So Broadcasting Co.

The individual then takes the responsibility for the news which he has gathered from any one of a great many sources.

But as I say, in the last analysis, what you finally wind up by doing is placing the responsibility on some agency or some individual that is willing to be responsible for that news.

I think I speak for everyone who is in this business, as I am, in saying that I don't think anyone suffers much more than we do when we give erroneous news or make mistakes. We are just as anxious to avoid it as this committee is to see that mistakes are not made.

The CHAIRMAN. You are not the only person who comes in for criticism. My attention was called within the past day or two to a distinguished man who said either that I was goofy or my bill was goofy.

Senator JOHNSON. He said that you were driving him out of the Republican Party. I do not see anything goofy about that.

The CHAIRMAN. You are simply confirming my low appraisal of the fellow who said all this. Now, that was a fine return to make, was it not, after my certificate as to the Senator's character? Mr. HENRY. How would you report that, Senator, on the air? The CHAIRMAN. I would not report it. I would suppress it. Mr. HENRY. I think, Senator, that my own personal belief is that the less regulation we can have, the better. I am not talking now about radio. I am talking about everything. I think all of us recognize the fact that if we can get along satisfactorily without regulations, we are better off than if we have to have them. There is no question about it. There is always the tendency to complicate and add to regulations because of certain specific instances which suddenly come to mind and which build up a problem. You then try to meet that particular instance with a regulation, and you find out that that regulation affects a great many other things that it was not intended to affect at all.

If I may be personal, about my own program, I think my own program, which is a 5-minute program, would be generally regarded everywhere as a straight news program. And yet, actually, it is perfectly obvious that I do not get all of the news in those 4 minutes on the air. I certainly don't get all the news on it.

But the very fact that I pick and choose and eliminate a very great part of the news is a very definite use of opinion on my part.

Now, that opinion is based on a great many years in the business, and if I left out the wrong news, I would suffer for it. The fact remains there is almost no such thing as news without opinion. It just is a question of who the individual is who exercises that opinion.

And it has been my observation, from my own use of the radio-I am a listener to the radio, as well as one who speaks over it, and when I am dissatisfied with a person who is broadcasting, I have no difficulty in turning it off and tuning to someone else.

I think that the people who generally are unreliable have a tendency to disappear from the radio, not only because of the action of the listening public, which is pretty capable of defending itself in that way, but also by reason of the fact that the radio stations and the networks for whom they appear not only have great pride in their networks and their operation, but also feel a very great responsibility and are very anxious to see that only the proper sort of thing goes out over their network.

So I think that insofar as it is possible to legislate that, it is being done. And I personally believe that additional legislation, no matter how well meant, would serve to greatly hamper the news broadcasting. Certainly if I or anyone else on the air had to spend any considerable amount of time specifically identifying news sources, it would be most difficult.

In the case of my program, which is only 4 minutes, I would about have time to identify my news sources at the beginning, and say, "Good evening," and identify my news sources at the end. I couldn't

give any news. If this thing were overemphasized, what would be the situation? We have to feel, when there is a law, that there might be someone who would come in who would emphasize it out of all proportion. There certainly is that possibility.

I don't know whether the Senators would care to have it, but I thought possibly you might be interested in the policy of the Columbia Broadcasting System, over whose network I broadcast. I asked the vice president in charge of that to send me a copy of our policy. If that is interesting to you, I would be very glad to read it for the record.

The CHAIRMAN. We would be very glad to have it.

Mr. HENRY. It is very brief, and I think it is very interesting. I would like to make it a part of my testimony.

The CHAIRMAN. It will be included in the record as a part of your statement, appearing at the beginning or the end or wherever you want it.

Mr. HENRY (reading):

Here is Columbia News policy which forms an integral part of every contract involving sale of time for news over CBS:

"Columbia Broadcasts news programs solely for the purpose of enabling the listeners thereto to know facts, so far as they are ascertainable, and to elucidate, illuminate, and explain facts and situations as fairly to enable the listener to weigh and judge for himself-in other words, Columbia endeavors to assist the listener in weighing and judging developments throughout the world, but refrains, particularly with respect to all controversial, political, social, and economic questions, from trying to make up the listener's mind for him. News periods, therefore, should be devoted to giving the facts emanating from an established news gathering source, to giving all the color in the proper sense of the word and interest, without intruding the views of the analyst.

"The news analyst further can, and very often should, give as much light as possible on the meaning of events. In other words, the news analyst should not say that they are good or bad, in his opinion, but should analyze their significance in the light of known facts, the result of similar occurrences, and so on, and in this he, of course, should always be fair. He is fully entitled to give, and should give, the opinions of various persons, groups, or political parties, when these are known, leaving the listener to draw his own conclusions after he has been, as well as possible, informed about the event, its meaning, the attitude of persons or groups toward it, and the known results of similar things in the past."

Now, that is the official policy of the Columbia Broadcasting System. I thought perhaps the committee would like to have that in the record.

The CHAIRMAN. We are glad to have it in the record.

Mr. HENRY. I would be glad to answer any questions that I feel qualified to answer, if there are any.

The CHAIRMAN. I expect you could tell us, sitting at this side of the table, a great deal that we do not know, if you would care to do it. But speaking very generally, you are opposed to the provision in the bill with respect to news reporting, section 18.

Now, can you give us anything in draft form in the nature of a substitute which will make contribution to the information the listener has, not only to what is said, but who says it, and whether he is talking on his own responsibility or whether he is hired by someone else, or what the situation is? If you can put in draft form any suggestion dealing with section 18, I know I would welcome it, and I think the committee would welcome it.

I have found, in a somewhat long legislative experience, that it is relatively easy to find things that you do not approve of in a legis

lative proposal. It is difficult to write one that will satisfy even yourself. But if you can reanalyze and recast that paragraph_to make some contribution to the public knowledge as to the speaker and as to the source of his material, we would welcome it greatly. Mr. HENRY. Thank you, sir. I have nothing prepared at this time. I have been trying to point out that it is difficult for me as well as for you.

The CHAIRMAN. This bill is not going to pass this week. So you will have a chance to work on it if you have the time and the inclination. And whatever your conclusion is and that of your associate broadcasters, I know it will be of value to us.

Mr. HENRY. Thank you, sir; I would like to say this. That to both radio and the press, it is of vital importance to have truth and accuracy in the news, not only because we want to give the truth with accuracy, complete accuracy, but because our very existence depends upon it. I believe that if any distributor of news gets a reputation for lack of accuracy, or lack of truth, it will destroy that agency. So it is a matter of very great, of vital interest.

The CHAIRMAN. We have had the impression that there was a large public interest in news broadcasting and news editorializing, and analyzing, and we did have that objective in mind of giving to the listener, not only the material that is put out but something to establish the authenticity of the material that is put out. And we are not gunning for anyone. We are just trying to get light and aid in what we thought was a task that was up to us.

Mr. HENRY. I will be very glad to assist in any way I can, Senator. The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions?

Senator JOHNSON. I had one question.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Johnson.

Senator JOHNSON. What you have said pertains to news broadcasts exclusively?

Mr. HENRY. Yes, sir.

Senator JOHNSON. You are not testifying with respect to commentators who analyze the news and interpret the news, and whether or not you would place restrictions upon them, or whether you would require their sponsor to be responsible for what they say or not?

Mr. HENRY. I think that what I have said applies rather generally to everyone who gives any part of the news, whether he interprets it or not. Because, as I say, Senator, even a person who gives presumably nothing but the news is actually exercising a very considerable editorial opinion.

Senator JOHNSON. Yes; I think you made a good point there. But in commentators' analyses of the news, would you require, or would you not require, their sponsor to assume any responsibility as to what they have to say?

Mr. HENRY. Senator, you are bringing up a question there on which I think there is probably some misunderstanding. I can only speak, as I say, for myself. My program is sponsored, but I do not work for my sponsor. I work for the Columbia Broadcasting System.

Senator JOHNSON. What I am trying to identify in your testimony, is whether you include these commentators and their sponsors, or whether you free the sponsors from all responsibility.

Mr. HENRY. Senator, let me say this. I don't think that any sponsor can put anything on the radio that is not approved by the network