Mr. NICKERSON. This is the practice in our area and I am only speaking for the New England area because it is not possible to insure what would happen on the west coast or Alaska. But, in our area, the price to the consumer on the shelf, it makes no difference on the vessel price at the dock. This has been our history in the past.

Senator BARTLETT. We had much testimony heretofore on predecessor bills from proponents of the legislation seeking to establish what was declared to be a fact; that the price paid the fisherman is not an important element in the delivered price of the product.

Mr. NICKERSON. I don't follow you-it is not an important element? Senator BARTLETT. I wouldn't say-if you follow them-you would agree with me?

Mr. NICKERSON. Yes.

Senator BARTLETT. Because it supports your case.

Mr. NICKERSON. Right.

Senator BARTLETT. Go ahead, Mr. Nickerson.

Mr. NICKERSON. Our type of business is unique because, like Mr. Ackert has explained to you, when our people go fishing, they work a mininmum of a 12-hour day. In the New Bedford fishing industry, we are generally gone 10 days or so, this means that they are working a minimum of 120 hours on every trip, in all kinds of weather, risking their lives. They definitely are employees because they do share in the profits. They only use the lay system to establish the wage system as such.

We have had a great many troubles and, even though we think this bill may not be as good as some, we think it is a step in the right direction and we heartily endorse the statement of the Alaska Fishermen's Union and my union would like to go on record as being 100 percent in favor of S. 1135.

There is an interesting sidelight here; that of fishermen being transient. Many of my people go to California and Alaska fishing to give it a try because many of them are young people who have just come to this country, particularly from Norway. This is why it is time that we did things on a national basis of Alaska, Massachusetts, and the gulf ports. I think this bill is a step in the right direction; if your group will help us with a bill such as this.

Senator BARTLETT. Chairman Magnuson.

The CHAIRMAN. No questions.

Senator BARTLETT. You are vice president of the Seafarer's International?

Mr. NICKERSON. Yes; I am.

Senator BARTLETT. And, in testifying yesterday on the fishing vessel construction subsidy bill, you said, as I recall, that there is a very serious unemployment problem among fishermen in your area; is that right?

Mr. NICKERSON. Yes.

Senator BARTLETT. Do you think that passage of the bill, now before us, would alleviate that problem to a certain extent?

Mr. NICKERSON. I think it would help a great deal.
Senator BARTLETT. Thank you, sir.

Mr. NICKERSON. It would create a stable situation.
Senator BARTLETT. Thank you.

Mr. NICKERSON. Thank you, very much.

Senator BARTLETT. Mr. John Hawk, please.

STATEMENT OF JOHN HAWK, REPRESENTING THE SEAFARERS INTERNATIONAL UNION OF NORTH AMERICA, AFL-CIO

Mr. HAWK. First, I would like to say, Senator Bartlett and Senator Magnuson, that the organization that I represent, the Seafarers International Union of North America, AFL-CIO, appreciates very much your calling this hearing while our people are in town attending our international convention.

I don't have the amount of copies of my statement that your committee desires, but I will see that you get sufficient copies in the near future.

My name is John Hawk. I am an international representative of the Seafarers International Union of North America, AFL-CIO. I made a general statement before this subcommittee on S. 3093 on October 15, 1962, when the Honorable E. L. Bartlett conducted hearings on that bill in Seattle, Wash.

S. 1135 deals with the same subject matter. At this time, I would like to supplement that statement by covering specific areas-Monterey, Calif., and Los Angeles, Calif., area. Purse seine fishing for sardine, mackerel, and squid: Average size of crew-10 men; fish local waters; go out at night and return in the morning; deliver fish to the fish cannery; that is, if they were successful in catching some.

The fishermen's hours of work are long, unregulated, and sometimes unrewarding. Their work is hard and very hazardous, particularly in rough weather. The wages of these fishermen are based on the price received for the fish and the crew generally shares equally the balance after the boats' share of approximately 55 percent is deducted. The fishermen or their unions, cannot negotiate fish prices. The fish canners set the price of fish unilaterally; consequently, we have a situation whereas the fish canner dictates the wage rates paid to the fishermen.

Tuna purse seine fishing in Los Angeles Harbor area: With respect to ownership of the tuna purse seiners fishing out of Los Angeles Harbor, the cost of these boats is much higher because many of them have converted from the old hook-and-line method to tuna purse seine fishing and are equipped with the most modern refrigeration equipment, plus power blocks and nylon nets.

The average purse seine boatowner in the area would not have the necessary funds of several hundred thousand dollars and, perhaps, that is putting it modestly, for conversion costs without borrowing the money and becoming financially controlled by the fish cannery owner to whom he is going to deliver his fish. Many of these fishing boats that I am speaking about are ownership registered under a name other than the fish canner.

The two largest fish canning companies in the Los Angeles area are the Star Kist Tuna Co. and the Van Camp Tuna Co. and in practically all cases these tuna purse seine vessels deliver their tunafish exclusively to either one of the other of these fish canning companies, no doubt the company that financed the particular boat.

These fish cannery owners set the price of fish unilaterally and it is not a strange coincidence that the price per ton paid to all fishing boats in the area, regardless of which canning company they deliver their fish to, is exactly the same price.

The fishermen's unions negotiate labor contracts on every tuna purse seiner boat in the area with respect to shares, deductible boat expenses such as food, fuel, and so forth, with the exception of the fish price at dockside which represents their wages. They cannot negotiate fish prices with anybody.

This is very unfair and a one-sided situation insofar as the fisherman or his association is concerned. The National Labor Relations Board orders and conducts representation elections from time to time on these vessels. However, the unions cannot negotiate fish price wages in this case. The crews of these tunaboats average 12 or more fisher

men.

We believe Senate bill 1135 will correct these ills and give the fisherman and/or his union or association the same right that all other employees have that work in and about or for these fish canneries-that is, the right to negotiate for his wages.

Thank you.

I would like to say, Senator, that as far back as 1940, the National Labor Relations Board ordered an election, conducted elections in the Monterey area on 67 purse seine fishing boats that belonged to a boatowners' association. The unions negotiated contracts with the exception of the fish price.

However, to elaborate on what our attorney, Mr. Vance here, has stated how they operate in Seattle, this is the way they operated not only in Monterey, but also in Los Angeles and in San Diego. There were boatowner associations formed instead of marketing associations. And, of course, the crews on these boats ran from 12 and up, and sometimes as low as 7 or 8. The fish canners' association would go in and negotiate with the canners for a fish price. The boatowners' association would then come back and tell the union committee what the best price he was offered for the particular species of fish.

The union, in turn, would report from the negotiating committee to the membership of the union and state what the price they were offered and they would decide either it was fair enough or it was unfair, whether or not they would accept.

This has been going on for years; however, in Monterey now you don't have too many fishing boats. Consequently, you have no fishboat owners' association.

In San Pedro, you have an assemblance of the old fish boat owners association. The same thing holds true in San Diego, the American Tuna Boat Association. The canner now is having a time of his life. He sets the price, period. You take it or you leave it and I think there is a telegram in here from San Pedro or San Diego today to give you a good instance of just how they operate.

Thank you very much.

Senator BARTLETT. Senator Magnuson?

The CHAIRMAN. I am familiar with the San Pedro tuna fishery and it has always been difficult for me to understand the lack of a stable price to the fishermen.

Mr. HAWK. The price is at the will of the fish cannery

The CHAIRMAN. For no obvious reason?

Mr. HAWK. For no obvious reason and the point is, and the point I am trying to make in the main here is this; that insofar as control of the boat or ownership of the boat, I don't know just what ruse they

use, but I do know that there are very few boats in the name of the ownership of the canner that they deliver the fish to, but whoever financed the boat, you can rest assured, they are the ones that get the fish.

The CHAIRMAN. The amazing thing to me about the tuna price per ton in that area is that it changes for no obvious reason. One day one week it is this way and the next week it is another way, and it seems to me that everybody would benefit by some stability of price.

Mr. HAWK. I think this bill, of course, as stated by previous witnesses, isn't everything that we want, but it is a step in the right direction. I would like to make one further point. I know that the fish canners, and the prices have been shown to me from time to time by tuna fish canners in the San Francisco Bay area, there are two canneries there now, and they have shown me the prices that they paid for tuna and believe me, they pay more for tuna than our fishermen get in this country that are delivering it right to the cannery. The CHAIRMAN. San Francisco area?

Mr. HAWK. Correct, and that could be possible in the southern California area, because the tuna canners, they go out to Japan and they make purchasing deals too, I guess, to assure their supply of fish, and in many instances, they pay much more than they pay our own fishermen in this country.

The CHAIRMAN. And when they do that, they are seeking the stability we are talking about of supply?

Mr. HAWK. Right.

The CHAIRMAN. That is their reason for doing it that way?

Mr. HAWK. They are seeking stability of supply, but in the meantime, here is what happens to the local fishing boats in San Pedro and in the San Diego areas; they may lay in the harbor off the dock with hundreds of tons of tuna in their belly and for months or weeks, and then the fish canner in the meantime is processing this imported Japanese tuna.

The CHAIRMAN. And to keep that reefer operation going takes a little money every day.

Mr. HAWK. Absolutely; not only that, but as far as the fisherman is concerned, he is not making any money. He does not get paid until he delivers his fish and furthermore, he is considered employed by the department of unemployment compensation in the State of California.

The CHAIRMAN. As long as he sits aboard, and hears those motors running down there to keep it cool, he is employed and he can sit there a long time.

Mr. HAWK. He sure can, at his own expense.
The CHAIRMAN. I have no further questions.
Senator BARTLETT. Thank you, Mr. Hawk.
Mr. HAWK. Thank you. Mr. Balinger?

STATEMENT OF LESTER BALINGER, SEAFARER'S INTERNATIONAL
UNION, SAN DIEGO, CALIF.

Senator BARTLETT. We will inform you, Mr. Balinger, in case you don't already know, that you will have another shot at this when the committee meets in San Diego on Saturday, May 26.

Mr. BALINGER. Thank you very much. I didn't know that until I heard it announced.

Senator BARTLETT. Recent development.

Chairman Magnuson a long time ago had made a commitment that there would be a hearing on this bill in San Pedro. It has been arranged to have that hearing on May 24, and it was thought that since we are so near San Diego, that your people down there ought to have a chance for personal appearances, too, and that is why the hearing will be held.

Mr. BALINGER. We are delighted to get this piece of information, really delighted and pleased.

My name is Lester Balinger, and I represent the Cannery Workers and Fishermen's Union in San Diego, Calif. Due to the fact that I was going to be out of the country, I submitted a brief on Senate bill 1393. These hearings, I believe, were held in Seattle, and I think by and large, the intent of that bill was to help the fishermen, which is the same intent of this particular piece of legislation.

Because I was in Washington, D.C., on other business, I couldn't resist the opportunity to come over and relay to you our continued support in this type of legislation. This is, in our opinion, going to free the fishermen, who have been enslaved for many years now, to the extent that they have not been free to collectively bargain for their wages. They can bargain collectively for many other things, but it just so happens that we have not been allowed by law to collectively negotiate.

And this bill, as we understand it, merely allows the fishermen to sit in as an association, as they are allowed to do in all other instances that I know of, and negotiate their wages.

We are real proud to support this and we will have further testimony when your committee comes to San Diego. We don't want to take a great deal of your time up here today.

Senator BARTLETT. Our committee is glad to have your reaffirmation and support and we look forward to hearing from you and your associates further down in San Diego.

Mr. BALINGER. Fine; thank you.

Senator BARTLETT. Mr. Chairman?
The CHAIRMAN. No questions.

Senator BARTLETT. Mr. Calise, secretary and business agent of the Seine & Line Fishermen's Union of San Pedro, Calif.

STATEMENT OF JOHN CALISE, SECRETARY AND BUSINESS AGENT, SEINE & LINE FISHERMEN'S UNION, LOS ANGELES HARBOR, ALF-CIO

Mr. CALISE. My name is John Calise. I represent the fishermen in San Pedro, the AFL-CIO and affiliated with the Seafarers' International Union, which is at present having its convention here in Washington.

I was not going to testify this morning, Mr. Chairman, because I knew of this hearing in San Pedro and I was going to wait until that time to present a brief and testify. That is why I don't have anything prepared. And the reason I am testifying is that I left San Pedro on the 15th of April and went to Panama as an adviser to the Govern