Hearings, Reports and Prints of the Senate Committee on Public Works

Mr. HOLMES. No, sir, that is right.

Senator METCALF. But we are talking about roads to develop the resources and to maintain and administer the reservations and they are comparable to county roads?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir, that is correct.

Senator METCALF. Now, how many acres of Indian reservations are there?

Mr. HOLMES. About 52 million acres.

Senator METCALF. 52 million acres, and in how many reservations? Mr. HOLMES. Well, almost 200. Some of them are very small, they run from a few acres to 16 million acres in the Navajo Reservation, but approximately there are 200 reservations.

Senator METCALF. Do you consider this authorization adequate for you to carry out your present and proposed program of road development?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir, we do.

Senator METCALF. A few years ago I appeared with Senator Mansfield before Senator Douglas' committee on proposals for area redevelopment bills and we were able to have the Indian reservations included because we demonstrated to them that they were the most povertystricken areas in the country.

Now, today we are concerned with a war against poverty and part of that war, of course, is to be waged on Indian reservations because they are still among the most poverty-stricken areas in America.

And yet, as you pointed out, the highway network from the Indian reservations is probably less than in any other comparable area in the United States. It is in the State of Montana, I know; down on the Northern Cheyenne and the Crow Reservations, there are just no roads at all; no passable roads.

Do you think that we are meeting our responsibility, in this war on poverty, to develop the resources of our Indian tribes with this kind of an authorization?

Mr. HOLMES. Of course, it will not complete all of the roads that will be necessary but there is a limit as to how much you can use from year to year.

Now, we think that if this authorization is continued and if it is kept in tune with the times, so to speak, we will be able to develop the road systems.

Senator METCALF. You have a road program, a program for increased development of the road system for the future?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.

Senator METCALF. Do you have that program in such a state that you could supply it for the record?

Mr. TRIER. Yes, sir; we do have, we have the individual program projects up to 1970.

Senator METCALF. Without objection, it will be incorporated in the record at this point, if it is not too voluminous. If it will unduly burden the record, it will be entered in the committee files as exhibit A. (The information referred to is exhibit A of the committee files.) Senator METCALF. Now, we are talking about spending money wisely and economically and yet we maintain an authorization at just about the same rate of $16 or $18 million and you are asking for $18 million again, and it does not seem to me as if we are going to do much accelerating in the development of our program in the future.

Mr. HOLMES. Well, it may go up in the future, Senator. You see, it has been going up all the time.

Senator METCALF. No; it has not gone up very much. In 1964 it was $16 million; in 1965, $18 million, and $18 million in this bill for

1966.

Mr. HOLMES. May I say

Senator METCALF. And 1967.

Mr. HOLMES. May I say that the attitude of the Senator is very encouraging?

Senator METCALF. Well, we would like to have these projections by the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

Mr. HOLMES. We will supply for the record our plans for our future road construction.

Senator METCALF. That will be very helpful. Thank you. Senator Moss?

Senator Moss. In your allocation of these funds among the various Indian reservations, do you have a particular formula or pattern that you apply or is it simply where the Bureau determines the great need is; how is that done?

Mr. HOLMES. It is based on the need, it comes from the various area offices and it goes to the various agencies as various construction units, but it is done on a need basis.

Senator Moss. So that this fund or this authorization would be made up now of needs that have been filed with the Department and which were examined and at this point you decided that $18 million will be put on the needs that are already known, is that right?

Mr. TRIER. Well, Senator, we made a survey of road needs and it was made on a deficiency standards basis, and they are allocated as to priority and as to standards and they vary at the various reservations. Senator Moss. And the information would be available, for example, if I as a Member of Congress, for instance, wanted to examine where you are going to program this money that was appropriated after authorization, I or any other Member of Congress would be able to examine the program and see where it was going to go, is that right?

Mr. TRIER. That is correct.

Senator Moss. Thank you.

Senator METCALF. And we are going to have that material supplied for the record, are we not?

Mr. TRIER. Yes.

Senator METCALF. You can supply it?

Mr. TRIER. That was previously referred to?

Senator METCALF. Yes.

Mr. TRIER. Yes, sir.

Senator METCALF. Are there any more questions?
Senator Moss. No.

Senator METCALF. Thank you very much. If there is nothing more to come before the subcommittee, we will stand adjourned until 8:30 tomorrow morning.

(Whereupon, at 10:10 a.m., the subcommittee was recessed, to reconvene at 8:30 a.m., Thursday, May 21, 1964.)

FEDERAL-AID HIGHWAY ACT OF 1964

THURSDAY, MAY 21, 1964

U.S. SENATE,

SUBCOMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ROADS OF THE

COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC WORKS,
Washington, D.C.

The subcommittee met, pursuant to recess, at 10:10 a.m., in room 4200, New Senate Office Building, Senator Jennings W. Randolph presiding.

Present: Senators Randolph, Metcalf, Nelson, Fong, and Pearson. Staff members present: Richard E. Gerrish, assistant chief clerk, Richard B. Royce, Joseph F. Van Vladricken, professional staff. Senator METCALF. The committee will be in order.

The chairman of the subcommittee has been delayed over on the floor of the House in another meeting. Therefore, we shall go forward with the hearing scheduled for this morning. This is a continuation of a hearing on various and sundry bills, including an authorization bill for the next 2 fiscal years.

Our first witness today is Mr. Shadburn, who will appear in behalf of S. 2520.

Mr. Shadburn, will you come forward, please? We are delighted to have you before the committee, representing the organization that you represent.

STATEMENT OF MORRIS L. SHADBURN, FIRST VICE PRESIDENT, AMERICAN ASSOCIATION OF STATE HIGHWAY OFFICIALS

Mr. SHADBURN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I am Morris L. Shadburn, State highway engineer for the State Highway Department of Georgia, and am privileged to appear here today as the elected first vice president of the American Association of State Highway Officials.

I am substituting for Mr. J. Burch McMorran, superintendent of the Department of Public Works for the State of New York, who is our president. Mr. McMorran attended the recent International Road Federation meeting in Tokyo and has not yet returned from abroad. It is the policy of our association that testimony before congressional committees be presented by elected officers.

We certainly appreciate the invitation to appear here today and to present a composite view of the several State highway departments, as reflected in the 1964 policy statement that was developed and adopted by the chief administrative officers of the State highway departments at our recent annual meeting in Portland, Oreg.

Mr. HOLMES. Well, it may go up in the future, Senator. You see, it has been going up all the time.

Senator METCALF. No; it has not gone up very much. In 1964 it was $16 million; in 1965, $18 million, and $18 million in this bill for 1966.