Mr. SHAFER. The definition of a "common variety" is becoming expanded to include many rocks that we previously thought were "uncommon." At the present time there have been a series of decisions that the Department has issued which, in a sense, says: That the use of the rock will be the criteria, the use to which it is put.

Now, this means, at least to me, not as an attorney, but as a mining engineer, that regardless of the unusual characteristics of a rock, if it is used for building purposes, if that is the ultimate use, it will be considered as a "common variety."

Now, this may be an unfortunate position, but this is the position that the Department has taken, and I think that we in the Bureau of Land Management feel that we are bound to follow the decisions. I think as previously was indicated, Mr. Chairman, there is some disagreement within the Department on this. I think a letter was read here previously, one of the Acting Assistant Secretary's, that said that the Department itself felt that clarifying legislation was

necessary.

Senator GRUENING. The disagreement is between the Assistant Secretary in charge of the Bureau of Land Management and the Assistant Secretary in charge of mining, is that where the difference in opinion lies?

Mr. SHAFER. No, sir, the departmental decisions are issued by the Solicitor, not by the Assistant Secretary.

Senator GRUENING. After presentation of divergent views within the Department?

Mr. SHAFER. Yes, sir.

Senator GRUENING. Could you give us a report on that decision, and were there any minerals mentioned which were formerly considered rare but are now considered common which were affected by this decision of the Solicitor?

Mr. SHAFER. I can submit to you, Mr. Chairman, a series of recent decisions that show the trend in this direction.

Senator GRUENING. We would appreciate having them for the committee files.

Mr. SHAFER. I will submit them to you.

Senator GRUENING. Thank you very much, Mr. Shafer.
We will proceed. Have you concluded, Mr. Larison?

STATEMENT OF L. H. LARISON-Continued

Mr. LARISON. I would just like to say one more thing about "ringing rocks." We have about 400 tons in our plant in Sheridan that Mr. Rogers brought in. I have taken a hammer and I have hit various pieces in this pile that he brought down, and I do not get any ringing with a hammer. We have a specimen that Mr. Rogers brought down that has several knobs that were formed by nature, that stick out, and this piece weighs about 3 tons and you can take a hammer and hit these different knobs and they do ring like a bell. I believe that this piece-whether it was stolen from the Government, I don't know, but it was destined for Kansas City for use in some kind of a park. This special piece, where people will be able to go up and hit it with a hammer, will ring like a bell but the rest of the pile won't.

Senator GRUENING. Thank you, Mr. Larison. I would like to ask Mr. Parker Davies, is there a superintendent or director of this recreational area or would there be someone in charge of it?

Mr. DAVIES. I am not sure, Mr. Chairman. It would depend upon the administering agency or group. If the Bureau of Land Management were to administer the recreation area, its care and maintenance would be handled by personnel from our district office at Dillon, and no resident superintendent or director would be involved. Not infrequently we make land available to other groups for recreation purposes, in which case, I do not know how they would administer or manage the site.

Senator GRUENING. Well, I am going to ask the Bureau to present for the record a prospectus of what they propose to do with this area whether there is going to be an official in charge to point out the ringing values of this rock, whether the Government is going to supply hammers to visitors or whether you are going to bring your own hammer, and how this is going to be developed for the greatest public use.

Senator METCALF. Mr. Larison, I haven't anything to add. I think your testimony has been most helpful. I do want to point out that, as indicated by Senator Gruening, you have shown the tremendous cost of some of the litigation that it fathers. Both you and Mr. Maloney suggested that final decisions on some of these definitions can only come as a result of court decisions and litigations that may be carried to the Supreme Court, and that is the purpose of this hearing.

Perhaps we should avoid some of those costs to both the Government and to many of you people who are having to undergo this kind of litigation and prevent going to final appellate courts for hearings, and try to, by negotiations and by discussion and by analysis. of such definitions as Mr. Sahinen has achieved, save something of those four figures that you expressed.

Senator GRUENING. I want to thank you also, Mr. Larison for a very helpful statement. I think, as a result of the colloquy on this statement which took place, that if you have anything further to add, although your statement is very excellent in its present form, we would be very glad to receive it. We will keep the record open for at least 3 weeks for any further statement you wish to present.

Mr. LARISON. May I ask one question, just for advise: Now as I understand it, we were formally asked, U.S. Government v. American Chemet and Norman Rogers, to a hearing last September. We only protested by letter. I understand there is another hearing that is coming up on this same thing-I believe it had been postponedthere is another hearing this summer in July. I know that you cannot take any action on this in such a short time, but what do you propose that my company and Mr. Rogers do when we get this formal notification of this hearing this summer. We say we can't afford to go over there with all the instructions and the witnesses that they request.

Senator GRUENING. When was this hearing to be called?

Mr. LARISON. I understood it was in July, around July 17, is that correct-the 26th of July?

Senator GRUENING. Well, I would suggest to you, Mr. Larison, that you request a postponement of the Secretary of the Interior of

this hearing, and meanwhile this subcommittee will request a full statement from the Secretary, giving his point of view on this so that we may find out whether these expensive court proceedings are really necessary. We may be able to clarify the situation outside of court. I don't know that that will be the case, but we will certainly look into it.

Mr. LARISON. Can you tell me to whom that should be directed? Senator GRUENING. The Secretary of the Interior, Mr. Stewart Udall, with a copy to the committee.

Mr. LARISON. Thank you, sir.

Senator GRUENING. So that the committee may call up and see that you get an answer.

Mr. LARISON. Thank you.

Senator GRUENING. Thank you very much, Mr. Larison.

The next witness is Mr. Jack Ahern, manager of the Montana travertine quarries.

STATEMENT OF JACK AHERN, MANAGER, MONTANA TRAVERTINE QUARRIES

Mr. AHERN. Senator Gruening, Senator Metcalf, Mr. French, and Mr. Maloney, I will try to keep this as brief as possible. I realize that it will run into a lot of time.

Senator GRUENING. We will keep going until 1 o'clock and then we will reconvene after lunch.

Mr. AHERN. All right, sir.

May I get up a minute, I have a couple of things I would like to point out on the map which is a part of my presentation.

The travertine quarries at Gardiner, Mont, were first noticed in a report by Mansfield, a member of the U.S. Geological Survey in 1898, in which he described these deposits outside of Yellowstone Park in the vicinity of Gardiner, Mont.

This line right down here [indicating on map] is Park County. This [indicating] is the little town of Gardiner, Mont.

The deposit, which encompasses around 1,250 acres includes this [indicating on map] general area here.

Senator GRUENING. Mr. Ahern, for the purpose of the record, it is almost impossible to follow in the record testimony which says, "this area here," that is, the readers of the report can't see the map, would you describe it in such a way that the printed record will reflect what you are saying?

SO

Mr. AHERN. Yes, sir. These [indicating on map] are sections 15, 14, and 22, I believe [pointing to section 24 on map]. We have several maps for you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator GRUENING. Very well, you may identify it. This map will be received for the file.

Mr. AHERN. The area, generally speaking, lies within a mile north of Gardiner, Mont. The actual distance from this highway [indicating on map] to our principal quarry out here [indicating on map] is 2,100 feet.

This area [indicating on map] north of Gardiner, Mont., encompasses the bulk of the deposit, and it is deeded land.

The only part that is in the Forest Service and which we have filed mining claims on is east of the town of Gardiner, Mont.-it is the area on your map in orange color.

Senator GRUENING. Yes, sir.

Mr. AHERN. This area [indicating on map] is a large outcropping of the travertine deposit. Travertine has been explained by Mr. Sahinen as a precipitation from hot springs. It is a calcium carbonate. Mr. Mansfield, in his report of 1898, says,: "*** it is the purest form of calcium carbonate ever discovered ***"

Now, nothing was done in this area and with the travertine quarries until in the early 1920's, when a mining claim was filed and the Grant Placer Claims, the center area on your map there [indicating], and this land was filed on and patented in the early 1920's.

No further commercial activity was done until 1932, when a lease was acquired by the Northern Pacific Railroad, which operates in here. The Northern Pacific Railroad also owns the area, the large area outlined in yellow color on your map, which covers the bulk of this deposit.

The Northwestern Improvement Co., which was a subsidiary of the Northern Pacific Railroad, went into the area, built roads and opened up the face on about eight fabulously colorful quarries. They produced large building blocks which were sold to limestone or marble processors throughout the United States and these processors processed the stone and sawed it into slabs which are used in many beautiful buildings throughout the country.

Some you may be familiar with. For instance, the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C., has a considerable amount of Montana travertine in its interior walls. The State capitol at Salem, Oreg., has an interior of Montana travertine. The State capitol of North Dakota at Bismarck and also the State capitol of Minnesota at St. Paul also use this material. Other courthouses, railroad depots, museums, mausoleums, and so forth, throughout the United States have utilized this beautiful stone.

This is a very rare stone. There are a few deposits in the United States that are of commercial value, but their production is rather small. The most famous travertine deposit in the world is just outside of Rome in Italy. It has been a continuous operation for over 2,700 years, and many of the great and famous structures of the world, including the Coliseum in Rome and St. Peter's Basilica, were built of this stone.

"Travertine," itself, is an unusual word. It is commonly used now to describe the deposits of hot mineral springs, but the word "travertine" is really a corruption of the old Latin "lapis travertinus," which simply means "stone in the Tiber River"; so it is not really a true travertine in the minds of architects and designers unless it has the same color and texture of the Italian product.

Now just to give you an example of what I am speaking of, I have a couple of samples that I would like to submit of this stone. This [indicating] is a sample of Italian travertine. This [indicating] sample came from our claim.

The color varies just a little. I have a few other pieces here which are just a little bit darker, but very similar to the Italian product. You can see the "vuginess," which are the holes [indicating], and also the color, so it will vary very little in the same way. The Italian

stone is called, the color, is called "cream"- we call ours "royal ivory." Names in this business are like names in the drug businessquite important.

Senator GRUENING. Is this material porous?

Mr. AHERN. No; as a matter of fact, in spite of all the "vuginess," the holes, it has a very low water-absorbtion capacity-this is one of the outstanding features of travertine.

The Northern Pacific operated in these quarries and produced in excess of 4,000 tons of blocks for use as decorative building material, primarily in the form of polished slabs to be used for walls.

After World War II, because of the influx of many ersatz and inexpensive building materials, the demand for travertine, which was rather expensive to produce, fell off and the railroad abandoned its operation.

In 1952 a man named Al Welp secured the lease on the Grant Placer Claim and the Dolly Placer and started producing a rubble stone. Now rubble stone is hand split, a very crude piece of stone that is used as a wall veneer. It is shaped so that it will take the place of brick, not over 4 inches thick and suitable for placing in the wall, in a web-wall pattern.

He

This is the least expensive way to produce a building stone. followed this operation, more or less by himself, with his son-in-law helping him, for several years, and in 1960 he incorporated his business under the name Montana Traverine Quarries, which is a Montana corporation.

In November 1960, we acquired the properties of this corporation from Mr. Welp, and had the lease under which he was operating assigned to us. At that time we started a very extensive investigation into the uses and the potential of the travertine deposit. Our investigations have led us to the understanding that building stone in all of its forms are highly desirable from travertine. We never call on an architect's office without always getting almost an immediate interview. We talked to an architect here this morning who designed the new Prudential Federal Savings & Loan Association building here in Butte, and the stonework on the wings of the building, on each end, are Italian travertine, and he explained to me that they didn't want to use Italian travertine, they wanted Montana travertine, but it was not available to them.

We just recently have installed our saw with which we cut this material. This has been done in the last 3 months, and we are now in a position where we can produce and supply the tremendous demand. Our operation, up until this time, until 1965, has been in what we call or speak of as the rubble-stone business, and we have sold, over the past 4 years, in excess of 6,000 tons of rubble stone. Our principal markets are in Seattle; Vancouver, British Columbia; Portland and Eugene, Oreg.; Spokane, Wash.; Calgary, Alberta, Canada; Winnipeg; Chicago; Milwaukee; Minneapolis; St. Louis; Kansas City; Denver; Salt Lake City. We have sold very little in the State of Montana. We have had a difficult time keeping up with the orders on this stone. In the meantime we were looking for a better deposit of white travertine. In the stone business we are very much like the people in the ready-to-wear garment business color is very important. The fact that a stone is hard and durable doesn't mean too much, because most of the stone that goes into buildings these days is a

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