TESTIMONY OF HARRY RUTMAN, ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICER, ENGINEER SECTION, FIRST ARMY HEADQUARTERS, GOVERNORS ISLAND, N. Y.

Mr. RUTMAN. The refrigeration plant was acquired in 1950 from the Atomic Energy Commission. It did not cost us $24,000. That was the original value of the refrigeration plant. It did not cost us anything.

All we paid was the transportation from the Atomic Energy Commission plant at Brookhaven, Long Island, N. Y.

At that time it was figured that Camp Drum would be on a 100 percent occupancy basis. We submitted a project to the Department of the Army for the installation of the refrigerator warehouse. The Department of the Army turned us down and said that there were no plans at that time to have Camp Drum on a 100 percent occupancy basis and that, on that basis, there was no sound need for the plant either at Camp Drum or any other installation.

Mr. COTTER. I got the impression that you first got the refrigerator plant, and then submitted the plans to the Department of the Army. Mr. RUTMAN. In order to install the refrigerator plant, Department of Army approval would be required.

Mr. COTTER. Wouldn't you get the approval before you got the equipment?

Mr. RUTMAN. We believed that Department of Army plans called for 100-percent occupancy at Camp Drum.

Mr. COTTER. Whose plans were those?

Mr. RUTMAN. As far as First Army was concerned, we knew from our information that there would be 100 percent occupancy at Camp Drum.

Mr. COTTER. But you went ahead and got the refrigerator plant and then got the approval from the Department of the Army? Mr. RUTMAN. That was a sort of after-the-fact approval. Mr. COTTER. What else did you get?

Mr. RUTMAN. That was the only item we obtained, the refrigerated warehouse. That is all we have records of. That is all we obtained. When the Department of the Army said that there would not be 100 percent occupancy at Camp Drum, there was no other need for such a refrigeration plant in this installation. We reported it in 1952 to the depot, to the engineer supply control office at Columbus, Ohio, and then reported it to the General Services Administration and the Surplus Material Division (Navy), which is the screening agency for the Department of Defense.

Now, the Department of Defense and other Government agencies required notice of this equipment, and there was to be disposition approval from these other agencies, such as the General Services Administration. Subsequently we had the authorization for disposal as surplus and we put it up for sale.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. I want to be assured that there were not other plans made and other equipment brought in without having authorization to do it. We have discovered this in other instances where someone had the idea that they were going to need something and went out and procured it.

Mr. RUTMAN. It was not procured.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. It was brought up here as excess and then it was declared excess to the needs of Camp Drum immediately.

Mr. RUTMAN. Not immediately.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. How long was it used?

Mr. RUTMAN. It was brought up with the idea that it would be used. We thought there was a need for a refrigerated warehouse at this post, and it was sent in.

Mr. IKARD. What was the condition of the plant?

Mr. RUTMAN. It was not new; it was serviceable. Our engineers checked it.

Mr. IKARD. Was it in good condition or fair condition?

Mr. RUTMAN. It was serviceable. It was not new.

Mr. COTTER. Is there a technical property man from the post here who can tell us its condition at the time it was turned over to the surplus property disposal unit?

Mr. RUTMAN. Our engineers from First Army went down to Brookhaven, Long Island.

Mr. COTTER. I am talking about when it was reported as excess for screening.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. The only reason I bring that up is that in our investigations we are finding time and time again the same procedure that is followed here, and you probably read about one of them recently in the newspapers. The Air Force thought they would have a base at Elmira, N. Y., but it never matured, and they shipped fencing to Elmira for their nonexistent base.

We want to find out if that is happening here; if money has been spent carelessly and recklessly. This piece of equipment was not used here. It might be put to use somewhere else to good advantage. Those are the things that we are interested in, and I think they are of vital importance to us. We do not expect that we are going to uncover $1 billion in waste and extravagance, but these thousand dollar programs run into the millions and billions. We are looking at it, we hope, from your viewpoint also, and we hope you will not do something that will cause us a lot of waste.

Mr. RUTMAN. At that time the Army had the idea, and some information was received, that this plant was going to be erected at Camp Drum, and our information at First Army was that there would be 100 percent occupancy.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. The ideas are sometimes good, but before authorizations come through the procedure followed is to get it while you can get it.

Mr. RUTMAN. If the plans had gone through and we had to go out and buy a new refrigeration plant, it would cost us a lot more than the original $24,000 acquisition price paid by the Atomic Energy Commission.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. A great "if" is in there, of course.

Mr. IKARD. Where do you get your instructions from the Department of the Army?

Mr. RUTMAN. That would probably come down from G-4 of the Army.

Mr. IKARD. And the information that First Army had was that there would be 100 percent occupancy?

Mr. RUTMAN. Yes, sir; that there would be 100 percent occupancy. In that event we needed it.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. Where did the Atomic Energy Commission have this refrigeration plant?

Mr. RUTMAN. At Brookhaven, Long Island, N. Y.

Mr. COTTER. As far as the functions at Camp Drum were concerned, you had the plant and you could not use it, and had it screened according to regulations. There were no takers, and you were instructed to dispose of it, dispose of it according to regulations.

Lieutenant Colonel JENNINGS. Yes, sir; there was a form 120 on

that.

Mr. COTTER. My information is that the form 120 was submitted on September 26, 1952, and that it was screened until about July 1, 1953, when it came back, and you had no alternative but to class this refrigeration plant surplus property and sell it.

SALE NUMBER 2

Unless there are other questions on that sale, we will go to sale No. 2 which involves 35 lots of miscellaneous items in the invitation which was sent out on August 10, 1953, and bids were opened on August 25, 1953.

A bid deposit of 20 percent of the total amount bid, in the form of postal or express money order, or cashier's or certifie check, or such other form of security as may be acceptable to the contracting officer, made payable to the Treasurer of the Unite States, must accompany the bid.

Property must be removed by the successful bidder within. 20 calendar days after notice of award, unless otherwise specifie in the description or in any special condition, time to be computed from the date of mailing or otherwise furnishing said notice. DATE OF BID

BID

In compliance with the above invitation, and subject to all the General Sale Terms and Conditions and any special condition the undersigned offers and agrees, if this bid be accepted within. calendar days (60 calendar days if no period be apec fied by the bidder) after date of the opening, to purchase any or all of the items described herein upon which prices are quoted at the price set opposite each item. Bid deposit in the amount of $ is enclosed. BIDDER REPRESENTS: (1) That the aggregate number of employees of the bidder and its affiliates is (Check appropriate boxes)

500 or more, less than 500. (2) That he has, has not, employed or retained a compan or person (other than a full-time employee) to solicit or secure this contract, and agrees to furnish infor mation relating thereto as requested by the contracting officer. NAME AND ADDRESS OF BIDDER (Street and number, city and State)

SIGNATURE OF PERSON AUTHORIZED TO SIGN THIS BID

ADDITIONAL TERMS AND CONDITIONS

A. Consideration of bids.—Bids on items listed by Lot will be considered only on all or none basis.

B. The bidder warrants that he (it) has no interest, direct or indirect, in any other bid submitted in response to this invitation. If it should be determined that the bidder has such interest, then his (its) bid, together with such other bid or bids, shall be rejected.

The United States Criminal Code (18 USC/1001) makes it a criminal offense to willfully make false statements or misrepresentations to any Department or Agency of the United States as to any matter within its jurisdiction.

"This property has been screened against the known defense requirements of the Federal Government."

In the interest of paper conservation, only one (1) copy of invitation is furnished. If interested in the items listed, three (3) additional copies will be furnished upon request.

Bidders who do not respond to a minimum of three (3) solicitations will be dropped from the list automatically.

A 20% deposit of the total amount bid must accompany bid.