its definite purpose, as I understand it, a plan of keeping them out of the park and off the Gardiner route.

Representative LEAVITT. That would apply, Senator, only during the tourist season, would it not?

Senator KENDRICK. Of course, Mr. Congressman, I think any conjecture about it would be of but little worth here. But all the information I have is that the park authorities would like to keep all kinds of industrial or commercial activity out of the park at any time.

Representative LEAVITT. Well, the reason I asked is this: I asked Superintendent Albright that direct question a couple of years ago as to whether if this Red Lodge-Cooke City Road were constructed in order to take care of the hauling traffic in the summer, if they would then object to the use of the park road during the time of the year when it did not interfere with the tourist travel, and he told me that he would not object.

Senator KENDRICK. That is information that I did not have.

Senator BRATTON. I believe you will concede that the question might arise in one's mind without an explanation.

Mr. COPELAND. May I just add a word to that, perhaps, answering your question. The Cooke City mining situation is a very curious one. I know of no other mining territory in the country where there is just this same condition. A lot of faithful, hard-working men have been trying to develop mines in Cooke City for a great number of years. They have spent their lives and their time on that work. Being so far away from transportation, it has been next to impossible to get the same financial backing for this mining territory that they have had in more accessible districts. The result is that a great many of the interests there are held by a few people scattered all over the country. And there is no mining development there that has gone far enough, with the exception of one or two, not to make it a tremendous expense to bring people down here to Washington on that sort of an investigation or question. I do not know whether I have answered your question in a general way or not. And then on top of that is the fact that it is a man's job to get out of Cooke City to Gardiner during this time of year.

Senator FRAZIER. Of course, it would be no trouble for them to write. This is not a new proposition. It has been passed by the Senate a couple of times before; reported out at least, and passed once at least. So it is not a new proposition at all.

Mr. COPELAND. Well, there is a good deal of correspondence here, I judge-and this is outside of my own knowledge, but I think there is a great deal of material in this committee at this time, probably, on the subject.

Something was brought up this morning as to the questio road and its relation to Cody. Whether this road in its cor would be an advantage if they decided to make another parl from Cody. I am absolutely familiar with that entire sit the road would be opened to Cody, there would be 12 m road that would be available as a part of a Cody road brought out by some one asking that question this morn

I think, Mr. Chairman, that I have given everything that I have got in addition, and I simply say that the other matters have been so well covered here. I have given the main high lights of my interest in this proposition.

Senator WALSH of Montana. Mr. Copeland, you spoke about the mining interests at Cooke City.

Mr. COPELAND. Yes, sir.

Senator WALSH of Montana. What is the principal mine there?

Mr. COPELAND. The principal development, I think, is the Western Mining & Power Co. They have changed their names once or twice, but that is the principal development there at the present time. The stock is, I think, owned quite largely in Seattle and up in there. Senator WALSH of Montana. Operated by Doctor Tanzer.

Mr. COPELAND. It was until his death. Now his son.

Senator WALSH of Montana. He has been there quite a long while. Mr. COPELAND. Doctor Tanzer?

Senator WALSH of Montana. Yes.

Mr. COPELAND. Many years. Endeavoring to develop that property.

Senator WALSH of Montana. That is known as the Glengarry mine; is it not?

Mr. COPELAND. I do not know the name of the mine. I know just simply the name of the owner. It has been changed once or twice. Senator WALSH of Montana. Do you know the Glengarry property? Mr. COPELAND. I have been up in the smelter. Never been at the mine.

Senator WALSH of Montana. You have been at the smelter?
Mr. COPELAND. I have been at the smelter; yes.

Senator WALSH of Montana. Do you know the attitude of the Tanzer people concerning this road?

Mr. COPELAND. I have never talked to Mr. Tanzer about this road, sir.

Senator WALSH of Montana. Do you know the attitude of the Glengarry people?

Mr. COPELAND. No; I do not know the attitude of the Glengarry people. I do not know the Tanzer people, except that they have been doing a good deal of work on the Cody Road. I have never talked with them about this particular road.

Senator WALSH of Montana. Well, just what particular mining people in Cooke City have you talked with about the matter?

Mr. COPELAND. I have talked with-I would still recur to Mr. Brooks he seems to crop out here occasionally, and I think largely because he is a man of large experience apparently. And I have talked with quite a number of people who have claims.

Senator WALSH of Montana. Can you give the names?

Mr. COPELAND. Mr. Bud Hart is one man with whom I have talked. He has a claim up near Moose Lake which he thinks is worth the world. My talk has been more generally gossip with these people.

Senator WALSH of Montana. Have you a cabin up there the same as Mr. Sidley?

Mr. COPELAND. Yes.

Senator WALSH of Montana. Where?

Mr. COPELAND. On Clarks Fork.

Senator WALSH of Montana. How far from Mr. Sidley?

Mr. COPELAND. Two hundred feet.

Senator WALSH of Montana. A neighbor of his?

Mr. COPELAND. Yes.

Senator WALSH of Montana. Also a part of the Dickenson Ranch? Mr. COPELAND. Yes.

Senator WALSH of Montana. And how much area have you there? Mr. COPELAND. Well, we all together have approximately 4 acres. It was merely a matter of having a location for our cabin that belongs to us.

Senator WALSH of Montana. I want to ask you the same question I asked Mr. Sidley, Did you come on here from Chicago on this business, or did you have some other?

Mr. COPELAND. My business takes me up into New Hampshire and New York, and I came over here from New York on the way back to Chicago.

Senator WALSH of Montana. I want to ask you also the same question that I asked him. Eliminating your interest in it as one of 120,000,000 citizens of the United States, and eliminating the consideration of the people in Cooke City and that sort of thing, what is your interest in this matter?

Mr. COPELAND. My interest, frankly, Senator, is much as that expressed by Mr. Sidley.

Senator WALSH of Montana. You want to keep this country wild? Mr. COPELAND. I would like to keep this country wild.

Senator WALSH of Montana. Yes.

Senator KENDRICK. Are you not also interested, if I may ask, in the development of this mining camp because of your connection with the production and sale of mining machinery?

Mr. COPELAND. I certainly am; yes, sir; very much interested. Senator WALSH of Montana. Well, you would like to, of course, see these people have an outlet or an inlet?

Mr. COPELAND. Cooke City?

Senator WALSH of Montana. Yes.

Mr. COPELAND. I would very much; yes, sir.

Senator WALSH of Montana. You look at the region as a promising mineral region, do you not?

Mr. COPELAND. I do.

Senator WALSH of Montana. And you feel that there could be some very substantial development?

Mr. COPELAND. I think so; yes, sir.

Senator WALSH of Montana. Yes; and you would like to see the people have a road down through the park?

Mr. COPELAND. I would, sir.

Senator WALSH of Montana. It is your idea that that is the natural and legitimate route of ingress and egress here?

Mr. COPELAND. It is.

Senator WALSH of Montana. Yes. If, however, Mr. Copeland, you had reached the conclusion, as I have, that that route is impossible, what would then be your attitude concerning this road to Red Lodge?

Mr. COPELAND. I should say, Senator, that it was still a hopeless waste of money. I think it would be just the death knell of Cooke City.

Senator WALSH of Montana. That is, you could not develop those properties?

Mr. COPELAND. You could not develop those properties. Those properties are not high enough grade properties to make it possible to make the kind of development that is necessary. And it depends ultimately upon transportation.

Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any others who wish to be heard? Representative WINTER. Mr. Chairman, may I ask just one question that I omitted in my statement?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Representative WINTER. I would like to know if there is any report of the department head or the Bureau of the Budget here before the committee on this bill?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. And that has already been put in the record, Congressman Winter.

Representative WINTER. I just wanted to ascertain whether it was. The CHAIRMAN. Yes; there is a report from the Secretary of Agriculture in which is stated the conclusions from the Bureau of the Budget, and that has all been put in the record. And the Chair took the precaution in putting this into the record to make it known that they were adverse.

Representative WINTER. May I just glance at the dates?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir. March 18, 1928, and March 2, 1928. Senator Walsh, I wanted to ask your colleague from the House who is with us for the first time this morning, if he wanted to make any representations to the committee?

Representative LEAVITT. Mr. Chairman, I would be glad to make a brief statement.

FURTHER STATEMENT OF HON. SCOTT LEAVITT, REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE SECOND DISTRICT OF MONTANA

Representative LEAVITT. The bill pending before the Senate is in many ways the same as the bill pending before the House, except that the method of financing this road in the bill pending before the House is from the Treasury, and my understanding is that the proposal being made by Senator Walsh is to substitute that bill in consideration of the bill here.

The situation is briefly this, as the Senator has said. Successfully for a matter of 20 or 30 years the building of a road out by way of Gardiner has been resisted, and the proposal of a road from Cooke City out is by way of Red Lodge, or probably not at all.

That brings us to the question of the reasons for building the road. Many of them, perhaps all of them, have been presented to the committee. To begin with, the road proposed is, with the exception of two or three miles, entirely within national-forest area, lands belonging to the Federal Government. I have been informed by the

Forest Service that even though the forest values are not sufficient to place the construction of that road within a reasonable number of years as a part of the forest-highway program, that there will come a day when that highway will be constructed by the Forest Service, or rather as a part of the Forest Service program, and 100 per cent out of Federal funds.

That brings up the question, then, as to whether we have an emergency that justifies doing it now instead of waiting the 20 or 30 years before it could be reached ordinarily in the forest-highway program. Now, the emergency is in connection with the development of Cooke City, and also in the opening up of a new entrance to the Yellowstone Park. Let us not forget this. I think this will be substantiated by the two gentlemen from Chicago. That there is no forest area in the United States that contains in greater profusion and in greater beauty those elements which make it an ideal area for recreation. The fact that they have been in there a matter of 15 or more years with their cabins, etc. is proof of that.

It is an area that contains lakes surrounded by timber, with meadows and with backgrounds of beautiful mountains. It is now inaccessible except to those who have the wealth to go in and own these summer cabins, or who are in sufficiently good health to take horseback trips in here. It is an immense area. The building of this road through that forest area which is of great recreational value in itself, in addition to the road having the value of making a new entrance into Yellowstone Park would make that marvelous area accessible to the people of the United States, instead of to the few people.

Now, I am a lover of the solitudes, and I can understand the attitude of mind of the two gentlemen from Chicago. They would like to get out away from the machine guns, etc., of Chicago where they can have solitude and where they can rest and get their bearings again to go on with their business the next winter. understand that. And they do not want the rattle of the machine guns replaced by the backfire of automobiles. It would keep them nervous the year round if that was done.

I can

But there is a bigger problem in an area of this kind that can be met by a road which does not open up every foot of the great area. It still leaves the necessity of taking pack trains and saddle horses to go back into the interior of it. But it allows people to get close enough into the center of it so that a greater number can get the benefit of such a marvelous country.

They have the idea of just always keeping all of these areas locked up. We must remember that this is a national-forest area, a part of a great national-forest area surrounding the Yellowstone Park, which in itself has been set aside by the Nation and dedicated to the idea of being for ever a recreational area for the people, and that in itself is added reason for allowing some access to the surrounding areas under conditions that will be advantageous to the people generally.

Then in addition to that there is this question of forest values. If it were of as high a forest value as the forests of the western slopes of the Rockies and in the Coast Range Mountains, of course, this road would be constructed from the standpoint of forest protection