quantity of cargo that will not move in containers, and therefore the ports have got to be prepared to handle what is commonly called in the United Kingdom the rump cargo, and I don't think it's been given enough thought. I think too much emphasis is being put on the full container. There has got to be alongside this development of the full container a much more rapid development for the conveyance of goods on pallets, in cribs and smaller units; but I think the day of the individual package, the humping of the individual package, has got to go. There is one more thing I would like to mention before I close, and that is: It is not only a transport evolution or revolution. that is going on. There is a tremendously difficult sociological problem to be faced. It is said that a container terminal properly serviced and properly run could handle as much as a million tons of cargo a year. It has also been estimated in my country that a container terminal of that sort handling a million tons of cargo a year could run with 150 men. Now this means that there is going to be a very much smaller demand for the average dockworker-the docker; and if the revolution comes too quickly and too many are finding themselves out of work, then the whole process will be slowed down or even jeopardized for a long, long time. The one thing the shipowner cannot afford in the container era is that his ship doesn't get turned around. I guess some of you are wondering how I have got the gall to stand up here and say that when I come from a port which is presently on strike. The only thing I can say is this: that this is one of the troubles when you bring about a revolution. Dock labor in my country has been casual work since the beginning of time, and after years and years and years of negotiating and campaigning, it has now become a full-time job and every dockworker is now a permanent employee of a licensed employer. Although they've been working hard at this for 20 or 30 years, now that they've got it, the handful of men who are not going to be so well off-as is inevitable in any sort of streamlining of this sort, there's some who will not be so well off-they are stirring up trouble and the Port of Liverpool, I'm afraid, is still on strike. But, this is part of the revolution. It will calm down. I would venture to suggest that before I leave these shores they will be working quite happily and we shall not have any of this sort of nonsense again. But these major troubles can be overcome; you've got your own from time to time, I know.

Well, there it is. I don't think there's much more I can say. There are problems, enormous problems, to be faced, but somebody has often said to me that the time to go forward is the time when you're not quite sure; because if you're not quite sure and you start going backward, you can go right out of the picture altogether. We are not quite sure. I don't believe that even in America you are quite sure of where you are getting to. I do believe that this ultimately will be for the benefit of transportation and business generally, and I'm quite sure that the United Kingdom is going to be in the container world of the years to come and it won't be very long Now that's all I've got to say. I hope you will now shoot me down with as many questions as you like and I will do my very best to answer them.

Mr. SCHMELTZER. Most of the container ports in the United States are away from the old port areas. They are also avay from the city.

One of the advantages is that the trucks don't have to slug through downtown traffic to get to the container terminals. Is this true at Liverpool? Is it true at London? Is it generally true in the container ports you have seen?

Answer. Yes, I think this is going to be so. Is that true too, here? This is going to be the pattern unquestionably, but one advantage, of course, of containers over conventional cargo is that even if you had them streaming in through the ports near the town or in the town even, you would cut down on traffic problems because you would have bulk loads coming in instead of multiple loads coming in for packaging on the quay side. But, so far as Liverpool is concerned, our container berths will be right to the north with an easy access to the main motorways and a direct rail service to the back of the container berths. London has Tilbury-this is way down the river-and again a complete lorry route serving it. So generally speaking, you're quite right. There isn't the space in the city areas or the ports themselves. They will go further out and it will cut down on this logjam of traffic. This has got to be coupled with the concept of what we call inland clearance depots. We cannot, we think, have the millions of lorries coming down with small parcels for stuffing in containers and stuffing them on the docks themselves; so that we are going for inland clearance depots which will be 7 or 8 or 9 miles away from the port itself. There the containers will be stuffed with their goods and they will come down either by rail or truck to the port.

Mr. SCHMELTZER. Who does the stuffing?

Answer. That, as you say over here, is a good question. Dock workers, at the moment, are pretty alive to the fact that containerization is going to cut down on the labor element in the docks, and they are therefore laying claim to stuffing and unstuffing containers provided that they are within a reasonable-this is as far as they've got-within a reasonable distance of the dock area. So far as I know, they are talking about a radius of 10 miles. If it's within 10 miles, the dockers are laying claim to do this work.

Mr. SCHMELTZER. How about the business entity that does the stuffing? Is it something like a freight forwarder or is it the steamship line?

Answer. Well, at the moment, Overseas Containers, Ltd., have set up a series, or are in the process of setting up a series, of inland clearance depots all over the country. The one nearest to Liverpool is at Aintree and we, as a port of foreign trade, have got an equity in that company so that we will have something to say about its running. It will be open to anyone who wants to use them for any port. The Aintree depot will not only be a collecting depot for Liverpool; it will be a collecting depot for London, Southampton or anywhere else they want to go to.

Mr. SCHMELTZER. Is that a company that does strictly container stuffing?

Answer. Yes; we would hope that containers of the bigger factories will stuff their containers at the factories. This is a future thing. There are only a few emanating direct from factory at this moment. Mr. SCHMELTZER. Will there be a series of container freight stations in a radius around the port or will there be one container freight station that will handle all the cargo?

Answer. At the moment, they are thinking that there will only be one, possibly two, but not more than two I would think. These will be Customs depots, and they will be directly connected by both road and rail to the port terminal.

Mr. SCHMELTZER. Is there railroad equipment that can handle the containers and would they be able to handle various kinds of containers, that is the container that fits into the cell as well as the trailers on flatcars, and I suppose you might add high cube containers? Answer. I don't think that at the moment there is very much being done with your piggyback idea of putting the wheel trailer onto a flat car, but the box container-the lift-on/lift-off container-they can cope with those all right. We've got to gear up to this sort of thing. We don't know what is really wanted yet.

A flat car will handle either, but at the moment they are set up for the interlocking arrangement. They lock straight down. They are not really set up for the wheel variety. It takes a bit longer, that's all.

Mr. SCHMELTZER. Do you have any trailer size restrictions in your country? Weight restrictions or length restrictions?

ANSWER. Well, there's a length restriction at the moment, I believe, that the 40-foot container cannot travel on our highways. The 30-foot is all right, but the 40-foot is not at the moment.

Mr. SCHMELTZER. Do you have standardization problems involving containers and container sizes? Have you had much standardization? Answer. I thought somebody was going to tell me what difficulties you have here with standardization because I am quite sure you have got as many as we have. We hope and pray, for all our good, that we shall have standardized containers of 8 by 8, by 20, 30, or 40 feet. I hope you can get your people to agree with me. It would make life very much easier.

Mr. SCHMELTZER. Does standardization make a difference from a point of view of port operations?

Answer. Well, yes it does. It's bound to make a difference because the whole of your layout is set out for particular units. Your lifting gear, if you've got a variety of things coming out, has got to be changed for every lift. If you know you are going to have a whole run of 40foot lifts, you set it. But if you are going to have to constantly change down to 24 feet or 37 feet, something is going to go wrong, in my view. It is just going to slow it down. The more you standardize, the quicker the operation will be.

Mr. SCHMELTZER. This is both from the point of view of the landside and the shipside of the pier?

Answer. Yes.

Mr. SCHMELTZER. Do you personally favor any single size container? Answer. Well, I like personally-and this is only personal view-I like the idea of 20's and 40's because you can team up two 20's to make a 40. You can make one lift of the 40, if you want to. It is a very convenient size for handling and the weight is reasonable. If you do give it a bit of a bump, it isn't nearly as bad a bump as you do with dropping a 40-foot container. I think there's a lot to be said for 20's

and 40's.

Mr. SCHMELTZER. Is the two-container berth operation, in addition to other berths for special purposes that you described before,

presently in operation or projected? And if projected, will two berths be sufficient in 1969, 1970, and so forth?

Answer. This is an impossible question for me to answer. I think in theory-no, I still don't see the answer to this one. I think that any port that is going into containerization must have two berths anyhow. You've got to have two in case there's trouble at one of them. I think this is the minimum, and we are starting at the minimum. To extend into the third and fourth is really not a very big operation anyhow. We shall have the crane rails-the portainer crane rails-set along the whole quay wall, a 2,700-foot quay, but we shall probably only operate two of them initially as container berths or container parks behind them. If we want to spread into the other, it's only a matter of getting another portainer. I say that quite calmly because that's just a million dollars, but you know you can get them and put it there. No, I wouldn't say two would necessarily cover our plan; but two is our minimum to give people a service and welcome them into our port. We have taken the step of modernizing or adapting a graving dock as a container berth to carry us on until we've gotten new berths operating. Now this was a tribute to our forefathers in that they built in 1912 a graving dock which was designed also for use as a wet dock. It's 1,030 feet long, and it's got 43 feet of water in it and is 130 feet wide. In 1912 that was looking forward, I think, a great deal, and we are now adapting that for use as a temporary container berth. Now when we get to the new berth, we shall put the first new portainers in the new berth and take the two portainers from the temporary one and put them in the new berth.

Mr. SCHMELTZER. I'd like to supplement Mr. Capone's question. Do you handle the containers of many lines at your two container berths? If so, what arrangements are being made to handle more than one line?

Answer. We anticipate that there will be multi-use of berths. I don't think that there are going to be very many container companies operating in the United Kingdom who will have sufficient traffic to warrant exclusive use of one container terminal. So we anticipate that there will be multi-use of berth. If a company came along and said to me right now, “Will you rent us exclusive use of a berth?", I would say: "Welcome, come in and let's see what we can do about it." We don't exclude it, but I don't think it would be a practical proposition for many people. We are proposing to operate the berths directly; also. the port authority will provide the labor and will do the handling of the containers, the offloading, and loading of the ships.

Mr. SCHMELTZER. Will each line have a backland area of its own? Answer. Yes; this can be possible.

Question. Do you operate on a tariff system for the use of your berths or do you make an individual contract for each use?

Answer. We operate at the present on a tariff system. We have a rate on the ship itself for coming in and using the docks which covers us for conservancy cost of lighting, buoying, dredging, et cetera. You have got to remember that in the united Kingdom, we haven't got a munificent government who does our dredging for us. We have to do all our dredging and pay for it. And then we make a charge on the goods. Now when it comes to containers at this temporary terminal,

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in order to encourage use of the terminal by containerships, we have said that we will cut the dues on ships by 50 percent and we have quoted an "all in" rate for the container, the contents, and the handling; so that the shipowner, in fact, pays half of the rates on the ship and he pays us so much per container for all other dues, and it doesn't matter whether there's 5 tons in the container or 10 tons in the container or whether it's gold dust or feathers. Now this might be difficult over here. I don't know. But this is the way we're operating. We have a whole series of court cases in this area.

Question. Do you find quite a noticeable difference in cost of stuffing the containers bound for overseas services and the stuffing of road trailers insofar as there may be damage to the shipment?

Answer. I haven't any practical experience to help you, I'm afraid. Mr. SCHMELTZER. Is the container traffic likely to be the traffic of inland carriers who pay the ocean carrier a per-container rate to carry the cargo across the ocean to the user?

Answer. I have an awful feeling that I'm going to skate on some pretty thin ice in trying to answer this one. I don't know, quite honestly, what the answer is. If you take in your country the sea-land operation that was primarily, as I understand it, the concept of a trucking corporation on which the ships came as a secondary thought, I think that it goes deeper than this; so I think there has got to be an integrated system from one end to the other if the full benefits are to be brought about, and I think that the ship part of it is merely one link in a chain. I don't think it matters really whether it's the shipowner or the trucking interest who really controls it. But I think that in time, eventually, it will evolve that there will be one organization running it from A to B and possibly a different organization in cahoots with A to B doing it from B to A. The whole thing, I think it will be documented right through-one bill of lading for the lot, from factory to factory. This is what I think we have got to aim at. Whether we will achieve it with all the multitudinous regulations, restrictions, and difficulties in different countries, I don't know; but I think this must be the target.

Mr. SCHMELTZER. This is what we euphemistically call a throughroute, joint-rate, service here.

Mr. EDWARDS. This is your intermodal concept too, I think. Isn't it? Mr. SCHMELTZER. It's one of the intermodal concepts. The intermodal concept is one entrepreneur giving a single rate for the through service even though he does not supply all of the underlying service. The joint rate is, I think, the thing you described where two or three underlying carriers get together and the combined group publishes one rate and decides on the division of the rate and responsibility among themselves.

Does the present limitation to two berths in Liverpool create scheduling problems?

Answer. Yes. It does create scheduling problems but, because there are problems, it doesn't mean that there's any difficulty in making them. I mean, it's essential in any container terminal or any container complex. We're certainly not going to allow the terminal to be vacant or empty for 2 or 3 days every week. You've got to schedule them in.