Then here on page 88 there is a small article saying how Feedlot magazine gave awards to the two top national beef feeders and the awards commented on their operations, but it says at no time in any way are veterinary services mentioned.

I feel that this shortage of veterinarians is overemphasized, especially in the practicing field, because it seldom is difficult to get the services of a veterinarian during his regular office hours. And as for some veterinarians objecting to the farmer treating his own animal, even a mother often gives her precious baby an aspirin or something before she calls a doctor. So I feel that a farmer can often treat his own animal if it is a common condition. Dean Krill stated that in a poll the veterinarians objected to use of technicians, they would rather have veterinarians do all the work that technicians sometimes do, and his thinking was that enough veterinarians should be trained to do all these procedures such as bleeding of cattle. At least I took him to mean that.

But I am sure it is more economical to train technicians to do that. If you ask the average farmer what he needs in the line of veterinary services, I think he would usually say that he can use more instruction in self-help than more veterinarians in this area. That is my feeling on that.

Dean Holm stated that he thought more postdoctoral education was needed and I agree with him there.

I made a note that the dean from Kansas talked about a new treatment for bloat which will save millions of dollars. But, of course, it will have to be used before it can save that and there will still be a large loss from bloat, I imagine.

That is all I have to present, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. JARMAN. Do I understand, then, that you take the position that we should have more trained technicians and that if we had the trained technicians, the present facilities and number of veterinarians would be adequate for the needs of the country?

Dr. MEYER. Yes.

Mr. JARMAN. Thus, you are in opposition to the bill?

Dr. MEYER. I do not think it is necessary at this time. I would agree with Wilbur Cohen-it is more important to have more human medical facilities constructed at this time. I do not feel that it is imperative to have more veternary educational facilities at this time.

Mr. JARMAN. In terms of the projected increase in population of our country and the projected need for more veterinarians in the country to take care of that population?

Dr. MEYER. As this article in Modern Veterinary Practice indicates, the big feedlots use very little veterinary service and in my practice, some large successful farms very seldom call a veterinarian.

Mr. JARMAN. You feel we need more technicians?

Dr. MEYER. I feel it is a great waste to train enough veterinarians to do procedures such as taking blood samples from cattle.

Mr. JARMAN. How are technicians trained? Where does that supply come from?

Dr. MEYER. They go around with the veterinarian and he trains them.

Mr. JARMAN. Trained by the veterinarian himself?

Dr. MEYER. Usually. I believe that is the way they did it in West Virginia when they found they did not have enough veterinarians to take blood samples from all the cattle-they hired some rural people and trained them.

Mr. JARMAN. Mr. Rogers?

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. It is interesting to hear a different viewpoint, Doctor. We do not often hear viewpoints like that in Washington. You feel we have enough of everything already.

In your practice do you use technicians in your office?

Dr. MEYER. I am a poor employer, I like to do everything myself. But we have enough veterinarians in my area that I am able to do that. I think the farmer and a pet owner can always get a veterinarian, at least during office hours in my area.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Where were you trained, Doctor?

Dr. MEYERS. Washington State College.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Do you disagree with the projections of the need for veterinarians that have been furnished the committee?

Dr. MEYERS. By all means. Because, as I stated, these big feedlot operators, who produce such a high percentage of food compared to small farmers, do not use much veterinary service. My best clients are farmers who work in a factory and have a few stock on the sidethey have so few they do not have time to learn to do their own procedures.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Have you made any study of the projections yourself?

Dr. MEYER. No; but I really cannot see how the number of veterinarians will be less in 1980 than now. The veterinarians who are living in 1980-that are active-will all have been graduated since 1940, and since 1940 the number of graduates has gone up every year.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Our population is increasing at 32 or 4 million people a year. Perhaps this is part of the projection. Dr. MEYER. Maybe they take that into consideration.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. I think so.

What would you have a veterinarian do? It seems to me you would have technicians do most of the things. What would you have the veterinarians do?

Dr. MEYER. I would have the veterinarians continue to do as at present-diagnosing and treating conditions of animals and making suggestions to owners of animals as to how they may improve the health of their animals. If the predicted shortage of veterinarians should develop, I think the veterinarian could increase his usefulness by greater use of technicians and by training the animal owner to care for some conditions of his animals.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. What does your practice concern mostly, diagnosing the animals?

Dr. MEYER. In my area we have had adequate numbers of veterinarians so we have not encouraged farmer treatment. But in some areas the veterinarian in practice has trained his clients to treat their own animals, and there are articles published on that.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. I would think that you would have to be in very short supply for a doctor to go out to train owners of animals to treat the animals themselves-very short.

Dr. MEYER. If they are as short as all the other witnesses said, if there is going to be a 50-percent shortage in 1980, and there is a great shortage now, if the shortage is that great, the veterinarian might best go out and teach his client.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. You think that would be a sufficient solution to the problem, to teach the owner what to do? Could he diag nose?

Dr. MEYER. He can, in some cases. He will sometimes run into trouble where he would need assistance from a veterinarian.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. How do these schools keep going if there is no demand for the services?

Dr. MEYER. There is a demand. I am very busy in my practice. I could, I believe, handle a larger area if the shortage becomes acuteI believe I can help out by teaching some of my clients to treat their own animals.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Well, now, we just heard testimony that a school has only been able to take a third of the number of students who applied who wanted to become veterinarians because of lack of facilities. Would you deny these young people the right to go into this area?

Dr. MEYER. I do not like to deny anybody the right, because it has been an interesting and rewarding profession for me. But we will not be doing them a favor if we put them in a profession where he is not needed, if it is not going to be a profitable position for him.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. I do not think that has been established. The contrary has been shown to be a need. I believe yours is the first testimony to say otherwise.

Dr. MEYER. I have been the first practitioner who testified.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. I thought most of these people practiced in some area. Some of them are school people but I thought they practiced, often, too.

Dr. MEYER. You will not find many veterinarians who have to turn down clients.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Do you treat many private pets, as such, in West Virginia?

Dr. MEYER. Yes; some veterinarians do, but my practice is limited on that.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. For instance, in my area, in Palm Beach, this is a very heavy practice. Not very many in the cattle area right around the city, you see. How large is Martinsburg, W. Va.?

Dr. MEYER. 15,000. I have a colleague who has a small-animal hospital, and I just have an office.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. How many veterinarians are there in your community?

Dr. MEYER. Three. We service Berkeley County and part of Jefferson and Morgan Counties.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. What would be the cattle population of that area you are treating?

Dr. MEYER. I don't believe I can tell you that. The human population would be around 40,000.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. You do not know how many animals?
Dr. MEYER. I could not give you that.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. I think you have different problems in different areas. Where you have urban areas you have an emphasis on

the treatment of pets. People become very emotional about it, and they don't want to have a technician treating them. They want a doctor. What would you do in this instance?

Dr. MEYER. Evidently the veterinarians referred to by Dean Krill in a poll indicated they wanted to do all the work themselves, even such procedures as cleaning dogs' teeth. I feel a technicion should do this.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Suppose the owner wants it done? He is willing to pay for it.

Dr. MEYER. It isn't a national emergency that we have more veterinary schools to provide that.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. That is not going to be the only thing he is going to do. Some people may want that service, and if they are willing to pay for it, it helps a man make a living.

Dr. MEYER. Yes.

Mr. ROGERS of Texas. It just seems to me that we have to look at it in other than just our own community. The problem may exist where you have an overage of veterinarians in one area. It may be that in some areas we have a drastic shortage I have not done a particular survey for I do not think it can be done in my particular area. But all the veterinarians I know of are very, very busy and I assume that when we have a new one come in there is no difficulty of his making a living. Dr. MEYER. You are right. But there is an almost unlimited amount of work that can be done on a sick animal if there are lots of veterinarians-just like with humans-a lot of humans in distress could probably be helped by going to the Mayo Clinic for intensive treatment by specialists.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. A lot of people feel as strongly about their animals as they do themselves. I am sure you have dealt with that. I am sure you have great compassion for them or you would not be in this profession.

Dr. MEYER. I have clients who have had an old dog for many years and I know they want me to tell them it should be put to sleep but I will not take this responsibility. As the dog lives on, it is really a problem sometimes for the owner.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. I think they are great problems. Of course, we are all so much concerned with the research that goes on with animals. It is a problem that I think has to be met, too. I think we will probably be putting more and more emphasis on research with animals in the future, do you not?

Dr. MEYER. Yes, I do. And as I mentioned, I think more postgraduate work should be accomplished.

Mr. ROGERS. Which could be carried on at these schools, I presume? Dr. MEYER. Yes.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Thank you very much.

Mr. JARMAN. Mr. Mackay?

Mr. MACKAY. This is the most refreshing testimony that I have heard before this committee in a long time. In fact, I have not had an experience quite like it since a man came to me to oppose a school bond issue because he was tired of school bond issues. He said we ought to quit building schools because we have too many children. There are 50 million more people in this country than when I got out of World War II. You do not dispute that, do you? And we expect 50 million more people in the next 20 years.

Dr. MEYER. Yes.

Mr. MACKAY. Not increasing the quality or kind of education that you now have in this field, it will take larger plants to educationjust to hold our own-will you agree to that?

Dr. MEYER. For meat, milk and animal products, we can produce much more per veterinarian than we do now. For other fields of veterinary medicine it will require more.

Mr. MACKAY. I would like for you to level with me. Is your objection really to the method of financing or is it the fact that the Federal Government gets into the act?

Dr. MEYER. Some veterinarians want to keep things like bleeding cattle, taking blood samples-and artificial breeding of animals.

Mr. MACKAY. Let me put it this way. If you were satisfied there was a need, do you oppose the Federal-grant-in-aid approach? Dr. MEYER. No, I don't oppose that.

Mr. MACKAY. You are not opposed to that in principle?
Dr. MEYER. Not if it is needed.

Mr. MACKAY. You are attacking your own profession for selling subprofessional services; is that not what you are really saying?

Dr. MEYER. Well, I am not really attacking my profession, but I am saying that some things we do could be done more economically by a technician. I like to have things done the most economical way where the same results can be obtained.

Mr. MACKAY. One other question. I understood the testimony is that about one-third of those who graduated from the schools of veterinary medicine go into practice? Is that right?

Dr. MEYER. I thought it was more than that, but possibly so; I was surprised of Dean Holm saying 57 percent of his graduates went into public veterinary medicine plus what go to the U.S. Department of Agriculture that would leave about one-third for private practice. In my day there were a lot more.

Mr. MACKAY. You heard the testimony that there are three or four jobs available to every graduate. Do you question the validity of this demand?

Dr. MEYER. I do not think there would be that many satisfactory jobs. If a new graduate had the qualifications, there would be an unlimited number of job openings but many positions require experience or more training.

Mr. MACKAY. Are you making an economic argument that this will downgrade the economic reward of being a veterinarian, a doctor of veterinary medicine?

Dr. MEYER. I believe so.

Mr. MACKAY. That is the basis of your argument?

Dr. MEYER. My argument-my feeling is that the profession would be more rewarding-if we do only work which requires a veterinarian to do, rather than doing work which could just as well be done by a technician trained in that one procedure.

Mr. MACKAY. I have no further questions, but I want to thank you for coming over because, as I said, it is always refreshing to hear from someone who just comes and speaks for himself. It is helpful to hear from you.

Mr. JARMAN. Thank you, Doctor, for being with us.