Second, you are saying that the Congress preempts the question of the uniformity of observance of daylight time to the extent of determining when it will be observed.

You are then directing the Interstate Commerce Commission, by the terms of the bills we support, to foster and promote time uniformity throughout the Nation. Presumably, this will mean their cooperation with State and local officials to bring about voluntarily observance of daylight saving time on a uniform basis if such jurisdictions choose to observe daylight time.

As I have read thousands of clippings and conversed and corresponded with so many officials, I see more and more daylight saving time being observed. In 1965, 36 of the 50 States observed daylight saving time; just the year before, only 32. More and more local interests in this land, as we shift into a metropolitan type of civilization, are expressing their interest in daylight saving time.

Therefore, while you, I am sure, would wish to continue to maintain surveillance and supervision of the activities of the Interstate Commerce Commission in this regard, I would not envisage that there would really be any need for additional legislation any time soon.

Mr. VAN DEERLIN. Do you think this would provide the mechanics for achieving uniform time?

Mr. REDDING. It will provide the mechanics for achieving more uniformity-more uniform time than we now have. I am firmly convinced of that. It will not achieve the mechanics of assuring the solution Mr. Moss has in mind. It will not guarantee that every community throughout the land will observe daylight time or standard time. In the material we have presented here today, there are instances of individual cities divided within themselves, half on daylight time and half on standard time. Now, if you cannot even get a community within itself to decide the type of time it wishes to observe, I query whether the Congress could safely step in and legislate on this matter.

Mr. Moss. Would you yield?

Mr. VAN DEERLIN. I shall be glad to yield.

Mr. Moss. Of course, this is the point that troubles me. You are asking us here to take a very timid step, not for time uniformity but merely for uniformity of changeover dates, retaining in the local communities full powers to add all the confusion they can dream up to the pattern of time across this Nation. Now, we are going to give here, if the legislation you support is passed, the Interstate Commerce Commission the responsibility of fostering. How is it to foster? What staff has it for fostering? Does it undertake an active lobby role before city councils and State legislatures? I do not think that that fostering is going to be overly productive.

I think that inevitably, as the pressures of an urban society build up, we are going to have more time uniformity. It is wasteful-it is a rather shocking situation that confronts us as we move across this Nation during the spring and the summer and the early fall. But I do not think this legislation is going to remove the need for a bolder step ultimately. I am sorry that you, in your response to Congressman Van Deerlin, indicated your conviction that it would.

Mr. FRIEDEL. May I say, we have other witnesses from out of State. We would like to have this hearing over by noon today. So I wish

the members would try to be brief in their remarks and in the executive session when we study the testimony we can discuss it thoroughly. Mr. Moss. Mr. Chairman, in all deference to the chairman, I point out that this witness speaks for a very big part of the American business community and that business directly related to transportation and communications most affected by the problem of time. I think it is necessary that we fully develop any ideas that he may present. Mr. PICKLE. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. Moss. The gentleman from California, Mr. Van Deerlin, has the time.

Mr. FRIEDEL. Mr. Pickle, you are recognized.

Mr. PICKLE. I assume that both gentlemen from California point out that there are certain deficiencies of this bill. I do not know that this is the point to pursue it, but since we are on the subject, whether this is a uniformity of time or just an agreement to shift over a particular time, do you have a recommendation for a better approach than this measure?

Mr. Moss. Oh, I think I have, and I assure the gentleman that when we start working up legislation, I am going to urge that the minimum we can do is to establish the State as the smallest unit that can set a different time than daylight saving during these months of the late spring, early summer, and early fall.

Mr. PICKLE. What would you do if a State would not enter into an agreement?

Mr. Moss. I just said I would let the State be the smallest unit. I do not believe that we should retain the authority of towns and cities to set time zones different from those prevailing generally throughout the State.

Mr. PICKLE. Thank you.

Mr. FRIEDEL. I want to thank you, Mr. Redding.

Mr. REDDING. Thank you, gentlemen, for your patience with me. Mr. PICKLE. I would like to ask one question.

Is it your opinion that the big majority of States would approve this legislation?

Mr. REDDING. Yes; it is. May I simply say, sir, that I acknowledge that there is a responsibility that would devolve on the ICC to "foster and promote." But in my personal opinion with the cooperation that we have received through our efforts, in working with State and local interests, at practically no expense to this industry-this has not been a heavily financed operation at all-they are well aware of the problem. As I indicated, just this last year in the small amount of time we have had to work on this, we have had complete or partial success in the 11 States in which we have had to work. We are working in two States right now. Therefore, I would feel that the State officials, sir, would welcome this legislation. I would venture to predict that they would cooperate readily with the staff of the ICC without any significant staff time or effort.

Mr. PICKLE. Thank you.

That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. FRIEDEL. Thank you very much, Mr. Redding.

Our next witness will be Mr. R. A. Trice, vice president and traffic manager of the Virginia Stage Lines.

Mr. Trice?

STATEMENT OF R. A. TRICE, VICE PRESIDENT AND TRAFFIC MANAGER, VIRGINIA STAGE LINES, INC., CHARLOTTESVILLE, VA.

Mr. TRICE. Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, I do have a prepared statement which I, in order to save time, would like to put into the record, sir.

Mr. FRIEDEL. With no objection, your full statement will be included in the record.

Mr. TRICE. I would like to make a few comments, if I may. I do appear before you as a representative of an intercity bus industry representing the three major associations, the National Association of Motor Bus Owners, with about 1,000 members, the National Bus Traffic Association, and the National Trailways Bus System, an association of nearly 50 independent carriers.

We take no position with regard to daylight time versus standard time. What we are interested in is uniform time. We print our timetables in what we call local times. In other words, if it is daylight, we print them daylight; if it is standard, we print them standard. But our problem is compounded, is costly to the bus industry in preparing many changes, about three in the spring and three in the fall. The adoption of bill 6785, establishing uniform dates, will eliminate this problem and will enable us to give to the traveling public the time it is in the community when they arrive there.

Just this past spring, with the northeastern section of the country going on daylight time on the last Sunday in April, Minnesota on the fourth Sunday in May, Iowa on Memorial Day, the State of Virginia the week after Memorial Day, which this year was June 6, we found ourselves in an impossible position of actually telling the people what time it is impossible to prepare schedules every week and get them disseminated to the public.

The same thing occurs again in the fall when we have switchover dates from the Sunday before Labor Day, the Tuesday after Labor Day, the fourth Sunday in September, and the last Sunday in October. So this problem would be eliminated by the adoption of bill 6785 and related legislation.

Thank you, sir.

(The prepared statement of Mr. Trice follows :)

STATEMENT OF R. A. TRICE, VICE PRESIDENT AND TRAFFIC MANAGER, VIRGINIA STAGE LINES, INC., CHARLOTTESVILLE, VA.

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, my name is R. A. Trice and I am vice president and traffic manager of Virginia Stage Lines, Inc., Charlottesville, Va., à motor common carrier of passengers, operating in interstate commerce under rights conferred by the Interstate Commerce Commission and in intrastate commerce by authority of certain State regulatory agencies.

I appear before your committee as spokesman for the National Association of Motor Bus Owners of which my company is a member. This organization, commonly called NAMBO, is the national trade association for intercity bus operations and serves as spokesman for some 1,000 carriers. Its members include the Greyhound. Trailways, and independent carriers who provide approximately three-fourths of such service throughout the United States and a number of Canadian Provinces.

I am also authorized to present the views of the National Trailways Bus System, an association of nearly 50 independent intercity bus carriers, of which my company is also a member. Further, the views expressed here are also those of the National Bus Traffic Association which, among numerous other functions,

publishes bus tariffs and assists in coordinating the schedules of connecting bus carriers.

My testimony is directed primarily to H.R. 6785, H.R. 7867 and H.R. 6481. These measures would establish uniform change dates for those areas observing daylight time and would create new standard time zones. The enactment of this type of legislation would constitute an effective remedy for one phase of the chaotic situation which results from the lack of uniform time standards, particularly during the period from the last Sunday in April through the last Sunday in October. As your committee knows, there are two aspects to the problem. One involves the situation in which individual communities or areas, often adjacent to one another, observe different standards-some on daylight time and others on standard. The other facet is the difference in the dates on which the changes from one time to the other become effective. It is the latter situation which would be corrected by enactment of these bills.

For a number of reasons the intercity bus industry and its passengers are more seriously affected in terms of expense, inconvenience and confusion than is the case in any other form of transportation. In the first place, our industry serves more communities than any other form of public passenger transportation. In the second place, our industry transports about one-sixth more domestic passengers annually than do the railroads and airlines combined. This is due to the fact that almost every community in the Nation and nearly every mile of the main highways are served by buses. The "Official Bus Guide," which is published monthly and contains the time tables of all the principal carriers is approximately the size of the Washington metropolitan area telephone directory and lists about 370,000 daily bus arrivals and departure times. The schedules shown therein must be revised a minimum of twice a year solely because of the change to or from daylight time for all communities which observe advanced time. However, due to the different times that various areas observe advanced time, schedules in some areas have to be reworked and published six times between the last Sunday in April and the last Sunday in October.

In addition to the problems involved in the preparation of this official guide, which is used for routing passengers by 25,000 or more ticket agents all over the country, is the preparation and printing of timetables by the individual carriers for use in their terminals and for general distribution. Many of our carriers report that they print timetables for distribution seven times a year on the average. If uniform change of dates as proposed by these bills were in effect, this could be reduced to two or three times a year.

It is estimated that an additional expense of at least $250,000 annually is incurred by the bus carriers as a result of this chaotic situation for printing alone. This takes no account of the additional man-hours expended in the scheduling departments of carriers in an attempt to rearrange service; the cost of these operations is undoubtedly several times the mere printing expenses. While it is impossible to attach a precise total price tag to this complex task, it could well amount to $1 million annually.

The problems arising from this confusing situation are by no means limited to their impact on the carriers. Inevitably they detract from the effectiveness of our service and this, in turn, affects our patronage and revenues. To avoid burdening the record with a mass of detail, some of which would be repetitive, I shall offer only two illustrations.

The two illustrations that I would like to use cover relatively small areas in relationship to the United States as a whole; however, you will note that these two illustrations are many miles removed from each other. That the matter of time uniformity is a matter the Congress should handle rather than leave to the individual States or local subdivisions is revealed by these two illustrations.

The State of Virginia is bounded by the District of Columbia and the States of Maryland, West Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, and North Carolina. On April 25 of last year the District of Columbia, Maryland and West Virginia went on daylight saving time. By law, the States of Kentucky (with some few scattered exceptions), Tennessee and North Carolina remain on standard time the year round. On the Sunday after Memorial Day, by State law, the State of Virginia went on daylight saving time, except that the counties adjacent to the District of Columbia: namely, Fairfax and Arlington, were permitted to go on daylight saving time on April 25. Also, the counties which adjoin Kentucky, Tennessee and North Carolina; namely, Lee, Wise, Dickerson, Buchanan, Scott, Smith, Russell, and Washington, remain on standard time the year round. Then, on the Sunday before Labor Day, that portion of Virginia which observes daylight saving time 58-797-66—7

reverted to standard time except for the two counties adjacent to the District of Columbia which remained on daylight saving time until the last Sunday in October. In the meantime, the State of West Virginia reverted to standard time on the fourth Sunday in September. To complicate this situation further, the towns of Bluefield and Pocahontas, Va., follow the West Virginia instead of the Virginia pattern.

It is my belief that the State of Virginia, when it passed the bill, fully intended the State to go on daylight saving time from Memorial Day to Labor Day: however, under wording of the bil, the State goes on daylight saving time on the Sunday after Memorial Day, which, last year, meant June 6. Now, what does this mean to a carrier operating in this area? Historicalyl the bus companies in this area have commenced their added summer service, such as service to the beaches and to the mountain resorts, the Friday before Memorial Day. Due to the fact that many areas of the country go on daylight saving time the last Sunday in May, our national guide is issued to become effective on the last Friday in May, which last year was May 28. This meant that a carrier operating in the State of Virginia had to prepare its schedules effective May 28 in the national guide effective that date and, by keying them, advise the public that the schedules shown for the State of Virginia, with the above exceptions, are shown on daylight time, and for the period from May 28 to June 6 (effective date of daylight saving time in Virginia) deduct 1 hour for standard time. The alternative would have been to publish the schedules in the guide effective May 28, showing standard time, and keying them to advise the people in Virginia that the times shown are standard time and 1 hour should be added for daylight time, effective June 6. It is interesting to note that the two major carriers operating in the State of Virginia for the year 1965 elected to show their schedules as stated above with Trailways using the former method and Greyhound using the latter.

Now, let's switch to the Midwest section of the country for our second illustration. Minnesota is one of the States that did not conform to the general daylight saving time dates of the last Sunday in April until the last Sunday in October. Last year several bills were introduced in the Minnesota Legislature to correct the inconsistency, but these measures were narrowly defeated. That meant that. by State law. Minnesota started daylight saving time the fourth Sunday in May and ended it the day after Labor Day. Now, generally this time period is referred to as daylight time from Memorial Day until Labor Day. This is probably the information that was circulated in Iowa. As a result, the Iowa Legislature enacted a bill providing that daylight time would begin May 30 and end the day after Labor Day. It is understood that the intent of the Iowa bill was to make daylight time consistent with Minnesota. Evidently it was forgotten that May had five Sundays that year. Therefore, Minnesota was on dalyight time 1 week ahead of Iowa.

As it is impractical for any bus company to change bus schedules on May 23 and again on May 30, most companies that I am familiar with changed from standard to daylight time on May 23, and there was considerable confusion with bus arrival and departure times in Iowa.

Now the two illustrations as outlined above confront carriers with an impossible situation with respect to both local service and through schedules. It is most difficult to give passengers schedules that are not confusing and misleading. It must be borne in mind that the Memorial Day period is one of the periods of heaviest travel in the bus industry.

Attached to my statement is an appendix containing excerpts from reports submitted to NAMBO by member carriers further illustrating the wide variety of difficult and confusing problems faced by them because of this lack of time uniformity during 1965. In the absence of corrective legislation, the situation in 1966 will be essentially the same as that of last year except for the specific dates involved and the fact that October as well as May has five Sundays. I shall not impose upon the time of the committee by further discussion of this appendix unless it is your desire that I do so. I should, however, like to have it included in the record.

This problem is not limited to short-haul operations such as I have just de scribed. Large numbers of our passengers take long trips, frequently involving transfers from one busline to another or connections with rail or air transportation. You can see the problem that an agent in Florida encountered in trying to tell a passenger what time he was scheduled to arrive in Minnesota. Iowa, or Virginia during the period May 23 through June 6 of last year. Added to the confusion within our own industry is the fact that many rail schedules are based