the basis of population with due regard to the total number of applicants available within each State.)

4. Does your office know whether or not nonresident persons in any State are precluded from the benefits of your program?

So far as is known to this office, nonresident applicants are not precluded from the benefits of the Civilian Conservation Corps. Before any applicant can be selected for enrollment, the selecting agent must verify the personal information which an applicant gives about himself, in order to comply with legal and administrative regulations. In the case of transient applicants, such verification can only be made through correspondence between the State Selecting Agent in the State where the application is made and the Selecting Agent in the State where the applicant claims residence.

5. If nonresidents are precluded from the benefits of your program, is such preclusion brought about by either (a) any provision of the Federal law, (b) any provision in a State law, or (c) by reason of any administrative practice, either Federal or local?

See answer to question 4, above.

6. How many young people (figures, if available) benefit from your program? The Civilian Conservation Corps appropriation for the fiscal year 1942 provides funds for the operation of 1,236 companies and for the employment of an average of 200,000 junior enrollees, 22,500 veteran enrollees, and 10,000 Indian and territorial enrollees. If the men stay in the Corps an average of 8 or 9 months, an aggregate of 450,000 men will be given employment during the year. Since the first man was enrolled in the Civilian Conservation Corps on April 5, 1933, a total of 2,818,547 junior enrollees, age 17-23, have benefited from Civilian Conservation Corps enrollment, including those now in the Corps.

7. Does any State law, or administrative practice, in any way affect the operation of your program?

No.

8. Are any priorities observed as between resident applicants and nonresident applicants?

At the present time any eligible and qualified applicant may be afforded the opportunity of enrollment. Resident applicants are not given priority over nonresident applicants, although it should be recognized that the eligibility of resident applicants can be established more quickly.

9. What disposition is made of a nonresident applicant who has no dependents?

Upon receipt of an application from a nonresident person, the local selecting agent will explain the need for investigating the facts of eligibility of the ap plicant. The local selecting agent will explain that these facts can only be de termined through correspondence with the selecting agency serving the area in which the applicant claims residence. In event the applicant is unwilling to await receipt of necessary clearance, he is advised to return to his State of legal settlement to make application for enrollment.

If an applicant is otherwise qualified, he may be selected for enrollment regardless of whether or not he has dependents. Accordingly, once having established the eligibility of an applicant for enrollment, those applicants without dependents are required to make deposits in lieu of allotments, and those with dependents are required to make allotments to such dependents.

10. If, in fact, nonresidents are in any way excluded from your program, have you any means of preventing such practice?

Nonresidents are not in any way excluded from the Civilian Conservation Corps

program.

TESTIMONY OF GUY D. MCKINNEY, NEAL E. GUY, AND C. W. BAILEY

Mr. MCKINNEY. Could I say that the selection of the corps, under the Civilian Conservation Corps, is divided up into two classes-the juniors, 17 to 23; and the war veterans, of which we have 25,000. Mr. Bailey, senior administrative officer of the Veterans' Administration, here, is familiar with the latter group, and Mr. Neal Guy is conversant with all details in connection with the selection of the junior group. I am going to let them answer the technical questions.

NONRESIDENTS IN CIVILIAN CONSERVATION CORPS

The point I wanted to bring out was that in our letter we omitted mentioning one thing. Since the beginning of the corps we have had a number of what you might call migratory camps, rather than migratory residences, located in the West, where large numbers of camps are established in the national forests and parks and other public lands. There we have located a number of boys from New York, Pennsylvania, from the Central States, and particularly from the South. These boys have been moved out to the West and have worked in the camps out there; sometimes we have had as many as fifty or sixty thousand men from the eastern section of the country working on these projects, but we are somewhat like Frank Buckwe bring them back alive. We do have somewhat of a problem, however, concerning the families of camp commanders. Many commanders have their families living with them, and as families are not allowed in the camps, they must live in nearby communities. Sometimes that raises a school problem for the children of these people as well as for the children of the war veterans who may have brought their families along.

Mr. THOMAS. The committee is particularly interested in the problem of nonresidents.

When a nonresident makes application at one of your camps in a State in which he is not a resident or does not have residence, what is the procedure, particularly where there are dependents? How do you handle the situation and any investigation you may make? Mr. MCKINNEY. I think Mr. Guy can answer that.

Mr. THOMAS. We were interested in how many such applications you might have come upon.

Mr. GUY. I would not know how to answer that question for the veterans' contingent of the corps, and I refer you to Mr. Bailey, who is in charge of the veterans' selection. I know he uses his field organization for that, supplemented, I think, by the local welfare people, but we-in junior selection-use the same agencies for selection and certification as W. P. A., Surplus Commodities, and so forth.

Mr. THOMAS. Well, I do not think at the moment we want to consider the veterans' situation. What we are considering here, of course, is the situation of the migratory workers.

Mr. Guy. I may say that in referring to the junior contingent of the corps we have no figures on the number of men who apply for C. C. C. selection outside of the State of legal settlement. It has never been a great problem with us, and I do not think at the present time that it constitutes a problem. There used to be, in California and on the west coast generally, quite a few transient applications, but there are no figures available.

Mr. THOMAS. Of course, this question might conceivably arise after the present emergency, or war situation, is terminated. It is conceivable that at such a time a large group of people might be in the process of moving around the country.

ENROLLMENT REQUIREMENTS

Mr. Guy. I think I should say at this point that our act does not require residence; it requires only that the young men under its

jurisdiction shall be citizens of the United States. It is on that basis that we pass the regulations on to State selecting agencies.

Mr. THOMAS. And the only reason, then, that you try to have some correspondence between the States is to carry out the mandate that you must investigate?

Mr. GUY. Yes; to find out whether the facts given by transient applicants are true.

Mr. THOMAS. And you have stated in your rules and regulations that where a nonresident who has no dependents applies for enlistment in the Corps, rather than clear him through correspondence, you sometimes suggest that he go back to the State where he has residence and apply there?

Mr. GUY. That is right and it is still in our regulations, but does not mean anything now, because the States are taking practically every qualified man who applies. Getting back to the other question, however, we found that many transients would come in and make application for selection on the spur of the moment and might or might not be there a day or so later so we would go through the necessary clearance and in the end wind up by not being able to locate the transient applicant when the time came to pass finally on the case.

DISCRIMINATION AGAINST NONRESIDENTS

Mr. THOMAS. Well, as a matter of fact, you really would not find much discrimination, then, against nonresidents?

Mr. GUY. You would find none; unless some transient might think he was being discriminated against because of the time it takes. to certify, or have the certification transmitted from his own locality or place of legal residence.

Mr. THOMAS. Would the local selecting agent be more apt to select a resident than a nonresident because of the fact that it could be done more quickly than through the administrative procedure of corresponding necessitated in the case of a nonresident?"

Mr. Guy. Of course, that is possible. I would not say it actually happens, but it is possible, and, as has been brought out here this morning, some of the States are not always able to police their own local offices thoroughly, which would allow such a practice to exist, although we have not heard of such a case.

Mr. THOMAS. When you suggest that a person return to his State of settlement or residence, you do so not so much because it might conflict with local relief or settlement laws, but merely that you would like to have him go back where he can be placed more easily?

Mr. Guy. That is right; so that his character, fitness, and eligibility could be more accurately determined.

Mr. THOMAS. What do you do in the way of tracing an applicant's residence?

Mr. GUY. The principal thing we have to determine is the status of the man's dependents, and that has nothing to do with his eligibility for enrollment or whether he is a migrant. Under the act we have to find out whether he has dependents who would be entitled to his monthly allotment of $15.

BASIS FOR PREFERENCE

Mr. THOMAS. In connection with men who have dependents, certain preference is given to applicants actually receiving relief; is it not?

Mr. GUY. That is right.

Mr. THOMAS. Now, from the discussion which has gone on before on the question of certifying people to the relief rolls, and its collateral procedure, it might appear that a man whose family or dependents were not on relief because of some administrative procedure, would be less likely to be certified or would be more likely to find someone else preferred before him.

Mr. GUY. I would like to make a statement in that connection by paying a tribute to the selecting agencies:

They have been completely unselfish, so far as the C. C. C. is concerned, and any demands that we have placed on them or anything that we have asked of them has been complied with, particularly in reference to qualitative selection.

We reenroll many applicants representing relief families. Prior to 1937 when the present C. C. C. law went into effect a man had to be eligible for relief in order to be enrolled in the C. C. C. There was little real opportunity to adhere to standards or a certain quality. Quality went by the wayside in those days but since the new act went into effect, the State selecting agencies have been selecting fewer and fewer applicants from relief rolls, and as a matter of fact, at the present time not more than 8 or 9 percent come from State relief rolls. This illustrates the extent to which nonrelief applicants are now being offered the opportunity to enroll in the C. C. C.

Mr. THOMAS. Actually, then, any residence requirement does not affect your program to any great extent? Have you had any controversy as to where a man had his residence?

INVESTIGATING PROCEDURE

Mr. GUY. Not to speak of, because everyone is aware of our policy and our regulations. We have had some complaints because of the delay, which the applicant might not understand, and he might say, "Well what's holding the thing up?" in which case we tell him, "The data have not come from your State yet." That sort of thing has happened. The judgment of the person making the investigation is usually accepted, and if he says the applicant is eligible we accept his word because it has been proved reliable. We do not have in the C. C. C. very much of a transient problem.

Mr. BLINN. Has that always been true?

Mr. GUY. No; not always; in 1934 and 1935, when everyone was following Horace Greeley's slogan, "Go west, young man," there was a great influx of transients in California, for instance-so many that if they had all been accepted the local boys would have had to stay at home. As a result, we accepted very few transients in California in those days.

Mr. THOMAS. As a matter of fact, your program, because of this emphasis on the investigation of home background and all that, more or less operates to restrict a nonresident, in the sense that it might be a little harder to get his certification. He might not have sufficient

roots in any community to establish residence; he might simply work in one place for a short time and then pass on.

Mr. Guy. It would draw upon the patience of the nonresident applicant more than it would the resident applicant.

Mr. THOMAS. Have you any questions, Dr. Lamb?

Dr. LAMB. It is possible that Mr. Bailey has some additional material to add on the subject of veterans and their families.

Mr. BAILEY. I have nothing more to add. If there are any questions you would like to ask, I would be glad to answer them, but I might state here that we are not now having any transient problem either in connection with the veterans' enrollment in the C. C. C. or in connection with the veterans generally.

Mr. THOMAS. Do you have anything further to offer, Mr. McKinney?

Mr. MCKINNEY. No.

STATEMENT AND TESTIMONY OF DR. MARY H. S. HAYES, DIRECTOR, DIVISION OF YOUTH PERSONNEL, NATIONAL YOUTH ADMINISTRATION, FEDERAL SECURITY AGENCY, WASHINGTON, D. C. Mr. THOMAS. Our next witness will be Dr. Mary Hayes, Director of the Division of Youth Personnel of the National Youth Administration.

STATEMENT IN REPLY TO COMMITTEE QUESTIONNAIRE

The National Youth Administration operates two major programs:

(a) The out-of-school work program, which provides work experience on useful public projects for needy youth who have left school and been unable to obtain employment; and

(b) The student work program, which provides employment for needy youth enrolled in schools, colleges, and universities in order that such youth may remain in school and properly continue their education.

During the fiscal year 1941, the Administrator was required by law to distribute the funds for the out-of-school work program to the States on the basis of the ratio which the youth population of each State bore to the total youth population of the United States. Census figures for the population in the group 16 to 24 years of age, inclusive, were used in making this distribution. However, while the State youth administrators were required to use the funds they received for the benefit of the young people of their States, they were not limited to making expenditures only for the benefit of legal residents of the State. Consequently, youth who met National Youth Administration requirements as to age, citizenship, need, etc., were eligible for employment on the out-of-school work program in the State in which they made application, regardless of their status as legal residents.

For the current year, funds for the National Youth Administration out-ofschool work program are available under two separate appropriations, one for the so-called regular program and one for the defense program, and nothing is said in the law for the fiscal year 1942 about the basis on which funds are to be allocated to the States. National Youth Administration defense funds are being allocated on the basis of defense needs under a cooperative program carried out by the Office of Education, the United States Employment Service, and the National Youth Administration, under the general direction of the Office of Production Management. The National Youth Administration funds are intended to finance projects which provide work experience leading to employment in defense occupations. The number of youth employed in each State on the defense program depends upon the number needed by defense industries, the number available for employment and training, the physical facilities and equipment which we have in each area, and the speed with which qualified workers can be furnished to the defense industries that require them.

Funds for the regular out-of-school work program during the 1942 fiscal year are being distributed on the basis of the youth population and the special