further needs and find what expansion is necessary, then plan that expansion according to those needs. DISCRIMINATION AGAINST NEGROES IN THE DEFENSE PROGRAM The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Carey, does the C. I. O. organization find discrimination-that is, racial, religious, and so forth-against the workers in the defense program? Mr. CAREY. We find there have been a great number of practices in industry that have prevented full use of our resources in manpower. There is, of course, the race question. Negroes haven't been given sufficient opportunity to perform at jobs other than janitor work. There we have an almost untouched area that we can move into and see that Negroes are given opportunity for training. We can't list all the cases where Negroes were discriminated against but it is true that many such cases exist. We would not be painting a proper picture if we said: "Well, there have only been a thousand or so cases where Negroes were denied machinists' jobs." When we look into this we see how many times Negroes are discriminated against by being denied an opportunity to train for these skilled jobs. It will take a long time to break down the barriers that have been created. Employers often use as an excuse the_fact that workers won't work with Negroes. When we get into the plants in industry we find this to have no basis in fact. Our members express no recognition of race or religious lines and work in complete harmony in industry today. I think employers are just using this as an excuse for not hiring Negroes-saying that they would hire Negroes if their workers would work with them. This is something that has to be worked out through collective bargaining, and it is being worked out, but certainly not rapidly enough. The CHAIRMAN. I understand that the C. I. O. in its constitution and otherwise, does not advocate discrimination of this kind? C. I. O. DOES NOT BAR NEGROES FROM UNION MEMBERSHIP Mr. CAREY. No, sir; and there is no reason why we should; in fact, it would injure our own program. If we set up barriers against Negroes-wouldn't take them into our unions, they would be a labor supply that would be willing to work for lower wages than other people. We find there is no reason to set up race barriers. In fact we are extremely anxious to break these barriers down. There have been practices in unions, however, where Negroes were kept out and there are practices in existence today where union constitutions contain discrimination clauses, but there are no cases of race discrimination in the C. I. O.-not one case like that. The CHAIRMAN. In other words, not only on the grounds of humanity but of self-defense, it is a good program to follow? Mr. CAREY. And also from a patriotic standpoint. Negroes can make a contribution to the Nation and every additional pair of hands working at a higher skill is a contribution to our Nation and everyone benefits as a result. The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Arnold? Mr. ARNOLD. No questions. The CHAIRMAN. Dr. Lamb? LABOR'S REPRESENTATION ON NATIONAL DEFENSE ORGANIZATIONS Dr. LAMB. Mr. Carey, you complain, I think, in your statement, on the lack of representation of unions on some of the national defense organizations. For example, priority committees and the like. Hasn't there been a recent organization in Mr. Hillman's division set up specifically to benefit labor and the labor movement? Mr. CAREY. Yes; we are having a reorganization day which will be some indication that we have not obtained perfection over the period of a year. The change that is taking place is to establish additional advisory committees, but we have some question as to whether or not advisory committees will satisfy the present needs— whether labor can make a contribution through an advisory committee, especially when one has difficulty finding people who are willing to take the advice. These advisory committees that are now set up in industry are not in any sense actual and equal participation of labor. Where labor desires participation is where the policies are formulated and carried out, and that is not done in the advisory committees that are set up under the new programs established by Sidney Hillman. The most that one could say is that they are a step in the right direction. Dr. LAMB. You think that is a step in the right direction? Mr. CAREY. A very small step in the right direction, I would say. Dr. LAMB. You speak as if there was opposition to union representation in the defense effort. Who is responsible for the opposition that you say exists? Mr. CAREY. I suppose naturally there would be a lot of opposition in industry-that is, management, which has had the feeling that it is their divine right to operate the production forces of the Nation. They desire to continue exercising this right. To question this authority you find the same opposition that you have in attempting to gain recognition of a union to deal with management in collective bargaining. Dr. LAMB. You are making a rather general and sweeping statement as to what you imagine it is. Have you any specific examples to bear out your statement? Mr. CAREY. Yes; I will refer to the aluminum situation that this Nation faces today as a result of labor's being denied a voice in determining whether the capacity would be sufficient to meet the requirements. Representatives of corporations come to Washington and negotiate contracts with their own associates of the same corporation. The figures taken to determine the capacity requirements in aluminum are given by people who formerly were or are at present officials of the Aluminum Corporation of America, and naturally represent the corporation's point of view. We find that the dollar question was involved to a greater extent than the question of proper national defense. There is no question at all that labor is not properly represented in the present defense set-up. All the operating divisions, including priority committees are dominated completely by representatives of management. Dr. LAMB. You also made some rather sweeping criticisms with respect to the failure to expand. Do you know of any published statements by manufacturers or groups of manufacturers opposing expansion? Mr. CAREY. Well, of course, it wouldn't be necessary for them to oppose expansion in a public statement, but it was done and you have the statement of the Gano Dunn report-the original report and the revised report. It stated that we had sufficient steel to meet our requirements and then a couple of weeks later we found that we didn't. We also have the report made by Ed Stettinius which stated that we had sufficient aluminum, but two weeks following that statement he declared that we would have to put in operation a voluntary priorities system; two weeks later a mandatory priorities was put into effect. SAYS INDUSTRY PROTECTS MONOPOLY We have any number of statements. The last statement I can recall is the statement of Mr. Fuller. Mr. Fuller said we had adequate steel. I think in a couple of months' time we will discover that we had an actual shortage. I believe he said the same thing with respect to aluminum. But the whole position of industry is to protect monopoly. There is a fear that any expansion may jeopardize that; therefore they don't expand. PRIORITIES IN THE FIELD OF CONSTRUCTION Dr. LAMB. The C. I. O. has recently gone into the field of organizing construction workers. What is the situation with respect to priorities in this field? Have you any information on that subject? Have priorities been invoked in the field of construction? Mr. CAREY. Of course, if a priority is invoked in steel or in metals that are used in building construction, the housing program will be seriously affected. The whole living standards of the citizens of the country will be affected. A priority in any one of those fields will tend to affect refrigerators, the type of refrigerators you can buy-the materials that are in them. The same thing is true of radios, automobiles and everything else. Everything connected with the building of a house, particularly a large apartment house will be affected also by steel priorities. Dr. LAMB. But you have no knowledge of the direct invocation of priorities in the field of building? Mr. CAREY. No; I am not particularly familiar with that. Dr. LAMB. Getting back to the question of the reorganization of Mr. Hillman's division; how do you secure representation on those committees? Are your members given the right to nominate members on those committees? Mr. CAREY. In the present set-up of the new advisory committees we are called upon to nominate people qualified to represent labor, and then they are appointed by the O. P. M. Dr. LAMB. But you do nominate them? Mr. CAREY. Yes, sir. Dr. LAMB. Your own representatives? Dr. LAMB. You are satisfied, then, with the right to nominate those people, are you not? LABOR WANTS VOICE IN POLICY FORMULATION Mr. CAREY. Yes, sir; but we are not satisfied with their position being solely advisory. We think they should be in the operating end and formulating the policies. Because labor's representation is solely on an advisory basis, it merely represents policies of the O. P. M. in the ranks of labor, instead of taking the views of labor and representing those views in carrying out the program of the defense effort. We have a good example of how labor is represented in the case of the steel priorities committee. You have a chairman of the priorities committee. The representative of labor is someone from the Department of Labor. He is the labor consultant on that committee. There is a consumer consultant who is the president of the Continental Can Co., not a representative of the ultimate consumer at all. So you have one consultant from labor or representing labor, a consumer consultant and all the others. According to the organizational plan, the chairman of the committee listens to the views of the consultants but he is not bound in any way by their decisions. Nor are there any votes taken. This type of representation is inadequate and unsatisfactory. DEFENSE TRAINING Dr. LAMB. You understand that this committee is interested in such matters as the operation of the Office of Production Management, running only insofar as it is concerned with the interest of workers moving from State to State in search of jobs or insofar as it runs in terms of substitute labor supplies which will prevent such migration. That is the reason the committee investigates and questions with respect to these matters, and particularly interests itself in total community problems or in problems of training. In the training sphere you are very critical of the present procedure because you feel that the workers are not given an adequate opportunity, according to what you said. The principal training within industry is carried out by workers, under supervision, to be sure, but nevertheless by workers. It seems to me that the workers have adequate representation there. Mr. CAREY. Most of the representatives of the O. P. M. in the present in-plant training and in-industry training are representatives of industry. Dr. LAMB. I wasn't referring to the national organization within industry training, I was referring specifically to the operations where the training takes place. Those are workers engaged in training workers, aren't they? Mr. CAREY. Yes, sir; and that is where the training should be placed. That is where it has to be done. Our chief criticism of the present set-up is that there is tremendous waste as a result of priorities, as a result of a lack of coordination of a number of governmental agencies engaged in the training program. The governmental agencies are working more in cooperation today than ever before. That is just of recent date, however. Our criticism of the training program is in part a criticism of the whole thing of the lack of proper planning, a lack in coordinating the requirements in skills and manpower with the training program. The problem is to supply people with the proper skills at the proper time. There is very little coordinaion between the job and the people required and the jobs that we have available. HOUSING Dr. LAMB. One last question. The committee, in its field hearings, has heard from representatives of labor organizations with respect to their activities locally, on housing-committees of one sort or another that have been set up in an attempt to secure adequate local housing. Has the national organization accumulated the record of the efforts of those groups in a form which might be transmitted to this committee? Mr. CAREY. Yes; we can have that transmitted this afternoon. They will send over a copy of the housing plan. Dr. LAMB. We will be glad to have it. Your earlier testimony was quite inadequate and vague with respect to that. Mr. CAREY. That is because we have treated that in a brief. (The material referred to above is as follows:) MEMORANDUM ON DEFENSE HOUSING SUBMITTED TO THE OFFICE OF PRODUCTION MANAGEMENT BY THE CONGRESS OF INDUSTRIAL ORGANIZATIONS HOUSING COMMIT TEE, JANUARY 23, 1941 Enough has been said already concerning the importance of adequate housing for workers as a factor in the current defense program to make unnecessary any restatement or reemphasis of this subject. Congressional recognition that housing deserves prominent consideration along with plant expansion in the gearing of the industrial machinery of the Nation to the defense program, is indicated in the passage of legislation some months ago appropriating funds to provide for nearly $300,000,000 worth of housing. As in other phases of the defense program, the problem now is not one of authorization or appropriation, but one of production. Under the terms of the legislation and the program which has been formulated in accordance with it, the two principal Federal agencies undertaking direct construction are the Navy Department and the Public Buildings Administration of the Federal Works Agency. As between these two, about four-fifths of the direct construction has been assigned to the Public Buildings Administration. The record of this agency to date deserves serious consideration. The Lanham bill, which appropriated $150,000,000 to build an estimated 50.000 houses, was submitted to Congress in August of last year and was passed before the middle of October. It was indicated with its submission that Public Buildings Administration would be the operating agency under it. As of December 31, 1940, it is |