which impresses upon the various departments and agencies the necessity of saving a great deal of file space. Our studies indicate that up to 20 or 25 percent can be saved simply by the destruction of parallel records and extra copies of memoranda. We are extremely anxious to proceed on that problem because we think it is the most fruitful spot where we can save a great deal of space. There are several million feet of space in Washington alone used for files and records. We are surveying every single building, room by room, as fast as we can get people to do it. We are endeavoring to find out how many people are working, the type of work they do, the character of their files, and so forth, with the hope that we can save a rather considerable amount of money both in and outside the District of Columbia. The amount of space that is used by the Government is almost astronomical. Recently, we found a case in Chicago where we were convinced that the people were using too much space. They were occupying about 190,000 square feet. Since the issuance of the President's directive, they have now agreed to relinquish 38,000 feet. We think they should relinquish 50,000 feet. Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. What agency was that? Mr. RFYNOLDS. That is the Department of the Interior. The same thing is true in New York. Recently, I got into a problem in New York where 10 floors were being used by an agency. We felt they did not need 10 floors. They told the owner they would give up 5 floors and they immediately requested us to rent for them 60,000 feet in the place of the 5 floors that they gave up. I refused to do it until they could show that they needed those 5 floors. Mr. TABER. Was that the OWI? Mr. REYNOLDS. That was the OWI. I was in on that before all of this press matter came up. You will find a good deal of that sort of thing everywhere. Mr. TABER. The Treasury is doing the same thing here in town. Mr. REYNOLDS. To correct this we must not only have the authority, but we have to follow it up by a room-by-room survey and keep the survey current. The agencies cooperate for a while, and then they slip back again and start using more space. The rent bill of the United States Government is very great. OTHER MISCELLANEOUS EXPENSES Mr. CANNON. Your estimated cost for 22 new positions in Washington is $79,635, and for 42 new positions in the field, $144,920; travel, communication services, and supplies and materials, $57,445, making your total estimate of $282,000. Mr. REYNOLDS. That is right. Mr. CANNON. Apparently, this is to be a permanent activity within your organization? Mr. REYNOLDS. It will be permanent as long as there is a demand for this type of service. We hope that when the Government gets down to a normal functioning basis again, we will not have to continue the survey to the same extent. We may be able to obtain the information through reporting media. We question whether this is enough at the moment to do the job. We do not. want to move into this thing too fast and have to feel our way a little bit. Mr. CANNON. These pay rates mentioned in the justification I take it are base rates? Mr. REYNOLDS. These are the rates that obtained prior to the last pay bill passed by the Congress. Mr. CANNON. And you would have to add later on enough to make up for the increase under the new pay law? Mr. REYNOLDS. That is right. Mr. CANNON. I think unquestionably this is a very meritorious program and one that should be pursued very vigorously. I have been appalled and astounded at the acres and acres and acres of space that we have added and added and added here and still we never seem to have enough. Mr. REYNOLDS. I would say that if we cannot get our money back $5 for $1, you ought to stop this work. I think there are real possibilities in this program. Mr. CANNON. Congress has placed a ceiling on the total number of Federal employees and it might be necessary, even if we approve this item, to consider that you would not be able to fill the job because others would have a higher priority. Mr. REYNOLDS. That is very true. Mr. CANNON. When it came to contracting the number to the over-all ceiling. Mr. REYNOLDS. That is very true. Mr. CANNON. You did not take that into consideration in submitting your estimate? Mr. REYNOLDS. We did not. We are in a rather unfortunate situation in that the size of our organization varies with the size of the Government. We are purely a service organization. As fast as people can be cut off the pay roll, it will help us, because then we can contract space. PERSONNEL FOR SPACE SURVEYS Mr. CANNON. How many employees do you have who devote their entire time to this particular type of work? Mr. REYNOLDS. We have 23. We are asking for 64 additional. Mr. CANNON. You have someone who heads up this work at the present time? Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes, sir. We have installed the initial organization here in Washington by bringing in people from the field who have actually been working on these problems. Mr. CANNON. This head space officer is provided for at a salary of $7,175. He is already employed? Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes, sir. Mr. CANNON. How long has he been with you? Mr. REYNOLDS. He has been with us for about 5 years, in charge of our space problems in Chicago. We have to fill the position in Chicago, of course. Mr. TABER. Why would it not be a good way to get at this to take the cost of this operation out of the funds that have been appropriated for rents, so that we would be sure that we were saving that much money out of this operation? Mr. REYNOLDS. I am afraid, Mr. Taber, you would get into a very serious problem of appropriations and accounting by doing that. I would not like to do it, because I would feel that I was losing control. Mr. TABER. Why would you feel you were losing control? Mr. TABER. This would not be a loose appropriation. This would be an appropriation of funds in the amount of $282,000 out of perhaps $80,000,000 that you estimate as being paid for rent. Mr. REYNOLDS. A lot of that rent is being paid by other agencies. The pending legislation will give us control over a great amount of space for which we do not pay rent. It is rather broad legislation. It is not restrictive. AMOUNT OF SPACE SAVED Mr. TABER. How much space have you salvaged since the 1st of September, for instance? Mr. REYNOLDS. We have saved about 4,000,000 feet outside of Washington, but about 2,000,000 of that has been taken over by the Veterans' Administration and the War Assets Administration. In the District of Columbia there has been a reduction of about 400,000 feet and we are hopeful we can get about 400,000 more by July 1. These savings have resulted from reductions in certain agencies. In this estimate, we are thinking of something that would not merely be given up in the normal conduct of business. In our opinion, the Government activities are using too much space and they are keeping too many files. In connection with files, we are getting excellent cooperation from the Archivist in the destruction of certain types of material that they do not need to put into the Archives Building. Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. I have a recent clipping from the press which refers I think to the directive that you spoke of. This article is headed: Agencies told to rid files of useless data. President orders clean-out to provide needed office space. Then it says among other things: W. E. Reynolds, Public Buildings Commissioner, who issued the order to cut records 50 percent by July 1, as a space-saving move, said today he would "do exactly what the President said-prosecute with all possible vigor." Further on the article says: The disposal of all records no longer needed in the current administration of business, or their transfer to the National Archives as their further value may indicate, offers the quickest means to free sorely needed space without interference to routine operations. I have not in mind the exact terms of the present law but in general as I understand records can be transferred to the Archives after a general survey and can be disposed of after they have been considered by the congressional Committee on the Disposition of Useless Executive Papers. Mr. REYNOLDS. That is right. Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Does this directive contemplate any departure from the law in that respect? Mr. REYNOLDS. No, sir. The Archivist will continue to classify papers that may be recommended for destruction. We are proposing a policing job, that is, actually going in and examining the records ourselves to see whether they should be recommended for destruction. I find in our own shop, in the Public Buildings Administration, that we must continuously keep after our people to eliminate the storage of excess materials in file drawers. Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. But the control in the Congress over the disposal of the papers is in no way modified or affected by this directive? Mr. REYNOLDS. Not at all. METHOD OF EFFECTING RELINQUISHMENT OF SPACE Mr. DIRKSEN. Do you have any authority over military occupancy? Mr. REYNOLDS. We do not have authority on military and naval reservations. Mr. DIRKSEN. I mean particularly business buildings and commercial space that the War Department and the Navy Department now occupy. Mr. REYNOLDS. This law will give us some authority on that. Mr. DIRKSEN. In connection with your space surveys do you relate the survey to the number of personnel on duty there; that is to say, so many square feet hitherto occupied by, let us say, 50 people, you find the same amount of space with only 5 or 10 people on the job? Mr. REYNOLDS. Yes, sir. We are attempting to relate the type of occupancy to the square feet that they should have. We are also studying their requirements to see how much file space must be set aside for that particular purpose. It is through those mathematical calculations that we can begin to find the loose spots. We then make a physical survey of the building to see how the whole plant may be rearranged to save a considerable amount of space. Mr. DIRKSEN. What technique do you employ to compel an agency to relinquish space? Mr. REYNOLDS. The only technique we have employed in the past was simply to plead with them. The directive of the President gives us some authority, and when H. R. 5407 passes we will have legislative authority. Mr. DIRKSEN. So you can compel them to relinquish space? Mr. DIRKSEN. Will that be true of the commercial space that is occupied by the War Department and the Navy Department also? Mr. REYNOLDS. It applies directly to space for which we may for some purpose or another be paying rent. Then in those cases where space is rented by other agencies, we have the right to examine such space, make our findings, and report to the head of the agency when we find that the space is not being economically used. Such reports are also submitted to the Bureau of the Budget. Mr. DIRKSEN. Are your reports kept on a monthly basis? Mr. REYNOLDS. We are going to attempt to get them on a monthly basis. We have not the personnel now to examine the great number of buildings. Mr. DIRKSEN. I wondered what tabular data you could insert in the record to show what progress has been made thus far, let us say over a 3-month period or a 6-month period. Mr. REYNOLDS. The tabular record would be perhaps misleading. We are directing our primary thinking to the problem of reduced space per person, as apart from releases that have been made so far due to separations of personnel. In cases of reductions in force they naturally give up some space. Our problem is to go beyond that point and have them give up space that they normally would not release. SALARIES AND EXPENSES, PUBLIC BUILDINGS AND GROUNDS, OUTSIDE THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA Mr. CANNON. We have an estimate before us in the amount of $1,448,000 additional for 1947 for salaries and expenses, public buildings and grounds outside the District of Columbia. This would be in addition to the $15,625,285 you already have. DENVER ORDNANCE PLANT According to your justification, this is intended for the operation and maintenance and protection of the Denver ordnance plant and additional requirements for space adjustments, and so forth. The ordnance plant will be used by a number of Federal agencies. Give us a statement on that. Mr. REYNOLDS. We have had a great deal of pressure from the Veterans' Administration, the Bureau of Reclamation, and the Geological Survey to provide space for them in Denver. The ordnance plant, which is about 8 miles from the center of Denver, was declared surplus and we asked the War Assets Administration to transfer that property to us for the use of these agencies. H. R. 5407 proposes the permanent transfer of that property to the Public Buildings Administration. The Veterans' Administration is now occupying a portion of it, and additional space will be assigned after certain tenant changes are completed. Then there is space for the Reclamation Service, the Geological Survey, and the Treasury Department which requires some modification before we can move them in. Our yearly requirement would be $1,018,900, however, we estimate the operation to average only 10%1⁄2 months for the fiscal year 1947 and the sum of $898,000 is recommended in this estimate. ESTIMATED SAVINGS DUE TO CONCENTRATION OF ACTIVITIES IN ORDNANCE PLANT Mr. CANNON. This is a very substantial amount; this is a huge project, in fact. It does not appear here that this is a net additional expense It must be that you will save considerably under this concentration of activities. As a matter of fact, I take for granted that is why you are making this move. Have you subtracted the amount of those savings from your requirement here? Mr. REYNOLDS. The savings that would be made would be taken from the appropriations for the respective groups that go in here. If the Bureau of Reclamation saves any rent that otherwise they would have to pay, it would be put in reserves for savings or deducted by the Bureau of the Budget when it sends their estimates to the Congress. The same is true of the rest of them. Mr. CANNON. You have an estimate here of $1,448,000. I can understand how moving and space adjustments are unanticipated requirements, but in view of the large saving of space and the assignment of 1,585,000 square feet of the available 2,047,885 gross square feet, you would have such a saving there for maintenance and operation that you could reduce the amount you are requesting here in this estimate, could you not? Mr. REYNOLDS. We have analyzed that cost, Mr. Chairman, very carefully. I do not believe we would save any of this estimate in operation. It will cost us that much to operate this plant. |