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committee in the interest of strengthening the scientific and cultural resources of other libraries of the country, and it would be of some assistance to the Library of Congress.

Mr. NORRELL. Will you tell the committee who made the request? Mr. MUMFORD. I know Representative Dingell was very much interested in it. Senator Humphrey was very much interested in it. And there were others. I do not recall all the Members who sought to have the act amended to include this provision.

Mr. NORRELL. Will you read to us the exact language of section 104(n) of the law involved?

Mr. MUMFORD. Yes, sir.

(n) For financing under the direction of the Librarian of Congress, in consultation with the National Science Foundation and other interested agencies, in such amounts as may be specified from time to time in appropriation acts, (1) programs outside the United States for the analysis and evaluation of foreign books, periodicals, and other materials to determine whether they would provide information of technical or scientific significance in the United States and whether such books, periodicals, and other materials are of cultural or educational significance; (2) the registry, indexing, binding, reproduction, cataloging, abstracting, translating, and dissemination of books, periodicals, and related materials determined to have such significance; and (3) the acquisition of such books, periodicals, and other materials and the deposit thereof in libraries and research centers in the United States specializing in the areas to which they relate.

That is the section.

SCOPE OF PROPOSED PROGRAM

As I said in my preliminary statement, we do not contemplate, for the time being, activities beyond acquisition and cataloging. You notice it refers to abstracting and translating, but the program proposed for the next fiscal year does not include that kind of activity. The strengthening of our acquisition activities in foreign countries and the use of native help in cataloging where there is a language difficulty would be of considerable help to the Library in cataloging and in providing printed cards to other libraries, and it would help other centers in the country that are specializing in these areas.

Mr. Rogers has been immediately in charge of this program and I will be glad to have him elaborate and answer any questions.

Mr. NORRELL. Can you tell us if any other agencies of the Government are asking for foreign currencies for the purposes of this section? Mr. ROGERS. No other agency is asking for money because this is a Library of Congress program to be carried on in consultation with the National Science Foundation. The National Science Foundation has a separate program which is limited primarily to translations of scientific materials and which they carry on under section 104(k) of Pub

lic Law 480.

Mr. NORRELL. As we go along, ask any questions you want to. Mr. Bow. You say no other agency has asked for money for a similar activity. How about the Bureau of Standards?

Mr. ROGERS. Of course there is a wide range of activities under Public Law 480. For example, I remember in their appropriation hearings the Bureau of Standards requested funds for research to be carried on abroad.

Mr. Bow. And translations.

Mr. ROGERS. That I do not recall.

Mr. MUMFORD. I believe the translation program is primarily under the National Science Foundation.

Mr. ROGERS. The National Science Foundation has made representations on behalf of a half dozen agencies including the Department of Commerce.

Mr. Bow. I am concerned that we may be getting into a lot of duplication under Public Law 480.

ACTIVITIES IN POLAND AND YUGOSLAVIA

You propose to be active, under this program, in Yugoslavia and Poland.

Mr. ROGERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. Bow. And the purposes, as I read the act, are to make some studies and get some information on technical and scientific books and publications of importance. Is there anyone here who believes that if we finance a program on scientific and technical books in Yugoslavia and Poland that that information which is determined in Yugo

slavia and Poland will not be turned over to the Communist countries and particularly to Soviet Russia?

Mr. MUMFORD. Our program would concern itself with the acquisition of the publications and the cataloging of them rather than research in the publications.

Mr. Bow. This law provides for

programs outside the United States for the analysis and evaluation of foreign books, periodicals, and other materials to determine whether they would provide information of technical or scientific significance in the United States.

My point is, you will make an analysis of the technical and scientific books with people of those countries and when that is done is there any idea that that same information will not be turned over to the Soviet Union by our Government?

Mr. ROGERS. It is already available to them. All we are doing is buying material on the open market that is available for sale to anybody in Poland or Yugoslavia.

Mr. Bow. You mean you are simply going over to buy books? If you are only going to do that, why do you need this staff?

Mr. MUMFORD. Because we cannot get adequate coverage through the open market or in exchange agreements. We can increase the coverage of important materials, and secondly, we would hope to get them cataloged in the native language to save time and money here in cataloging.

Mr. Bow. Do you think there is any question about that information being turned over to the Soviet Union?

Mr. MUMFORD. I do not know what you mean by being "turned over."

Mr. Bow. I mean being made available to the Soviet Union. That is very simple.

Mr. MUMFORD. Yes, but the title of a periodical or book is well known to the country or to the Soviet Union.

Mr. Bow. The law provides you will make an examination of periodicals to determine whether or not they would provide information of technical or scientific significance in the United States.

Mr. MUMFORD. Whether they are important or not, and we are doing that now, but we are not doing it thoroughly. You have to have people on the spot in order to get it done thoroughly.

PROPOSED STAFF IN POLAND

Mr. Bow. Do I understand in Poland it will cost us $42,345 in American dollars to get this job done? I am looking at page 112 of the justifications.

Mr. ROGERS. Yes, that is correct for a full year, but these estimates request only part of this amount because we will not be in full operation for the whole year.

Mr. Bow. In other words, in Poland we will send people over there and their salaries will amount to $42,345 on an annual basis. Is that correct?

Mr. ROGERS. Yes.

Mr. Bow. How much is budgeted for travel to Poland?

Mr. MUMFORD. $38,500, but that would be in native currency and not in American dollars.

Mr. Bow. All travel would be paid for in foreign currency?

Mr. ROGERS. All travel within the country.

Mr. Bow. I am talking about travel of these people to Poland? Mr. MUMFORD. We expect and hope to be able to arrange that on

the foreign currency also.

Mr. ROGERS. The Department of Agriculture reports they have

been successful in using foreign currencies for this purpose.

SALARY AND PER DIEM ARRANGEMENTS

Mr. Bow. How about the per diem of these people in travel?
Mr. ROGERS. They would be entitled to the standard Government

per diem.

Mr. Bow. In American dollars?

Mr. ROGERS. Yes.

Mr. Bow. What would that amount to?

Mr. ROSSITER. We estimated they would use foreign currency for that. That would only be a day or two.

Mr. Bow. Are you going to pay any of these salaries in foreign currency?

Mr. ROSSITER. 75 percent of all salaries of the American personnel abroad would be paid in U.S. dollars and 25 percent in foreign currency while over there.

Mr. Bow. You mean these American employees will receive 25 percent of this $42,345, in foreign currency?

Mr. ROSSITER. 75 percent is in U.S. dollars and 25 percent in foreign currencies, and the oversea differential would be in foreign currencies. Mr. Bow. And this you have set up on a basis of 6 months?

Mr. ROSSITER. Yes.

Mr. Bow. What do you expect to do after the 6 months?

Mr. MUMFORD. Let me say this. This in an exploratory and experimental program. We cannot be absolutely sure how it will work out. It has great potentiality for the libraries of this country and for the Library of Congress to get materials and catalog materials they do not now get; if it develops successfully, we would request a continuation of it.

PROPOSED STAFF IN YUGOSLAVIA

Mr. Bow. You have the same amount for Yugoslavia, $42,345, so you would have at least these two countries behind the Iron Curtain that we will start to do business in?

Mr. MUMFORD. Yes.

Mr. Bow. Do you have other countries behind the Iron Curtain you expect to get into besides these?

Mr. ROSSITER. There are no funds available for any other country. Mr. MUMFORD. This picture changes rapidly, as you know, from time to time. Whereas funds may be available for one period, they are not available for another period.

Mr. Bow. You say from time to time the picture changes and funds are available sometimes and not available at other times. What if you start on a program and then our foreign currency account in that country is exhausted?

Mr. ROGERS. We have been guided by the Bureau of the Budget on this, and the countries they have allowed us to include in this budget are those in which they expect foreign currencies to continue to be available.

Mr. Bow. The reason I am asking these questions, I have seen some examples of what happens in the use of foreign currencies in the past. And may I say these are some of the most expensive funds we have. Because we have them we often enter into things we wouldn't otherwise, and then we find that they are pretty expensive. I have in mind after the war the purchase of a large park in the center of The Hague in Holland. Nobody thought of the maintenance and other costs. We sold it, fortunately. This could be a very expensive program in the future.

Mr. MUMFORD. I think I can say we would not come back for American dollars to continuet his program if the foreign currency should not be available.

Mr. Bow. One thing that disturbs me is this: Every agency of the Government is beginning to get in the act to use foreign currencies. It does not seem like much additional expense, but when we look at the dollars to support these programs, we are asked to appropriate, I would say, $1 million or more in all the agencies in order to spend this foreign currency.

Mr. MUMFORD. I realize it requires some dollars to implement the program; $145,000 out of the total program will be in dollars.

Mr. Bow. In the Commerce Department appropriation bill the House allowed none of these funds. The Senate allowed a very small amount requested by the Department of Commerce for the Bureau of Standards, but deleted the countries behind the Iron Curtain.

I wondered if you want to start as extensively as this or whether you should start on a trial run basis. What is your comment on

that?

NEED FOR PROGRAM IN POLAND AND YUGOSLAVIA

Mr. ROGERS. I would like to speak about the importance to this country of publications from Poland and Yugoslavia as being Iron Curtain countries. One of the big problems of all research libraries is to get as much material as possible of this kind, and one of the reasons we find we are unable to do an adequate job is because we lack people on the spot who know the publications that are coming out and who can get them. We would hope that this program would provide us with an opportunity to work in these countries whose publishing industries are not the same as they are in the United States. It would be a mistake to project our concepts of publishing to these countries. They do not publish the way we do. Since they lack a national bibliography and a continuity such as we have in this country, we find that by the time we learn of publications in these countries they are frequently no longer available.

It is true the program could be curtailed. If the committee believed this to be advisable, we would be able to suggest where the curtailment could be done.

COORDINATION WITH NATIONAL SCIENCE FOUNDATION

Mr. Bow. What contacts have you had with the National Science Foundation?

Mr. ROGERS. We have them on an advisory committee of ours on this and they, reciprocally, have asked us to sit in on their budget meetings. We have worked with them very closely in order to be sure there will not be duplication, and I believe if you consider their program in detail you will see their entire emphasis is on translation whereas our emphasis is on acquisition of publications and their cataloging. They are two distinct programs.

Mr. MUMFORD. I think you might say something about the members of the advisory committee.

on.

Mr. Bow. I was more interested in what consultation has gone

Mr. MUMFORD. On the question of making a trial run on a curtailed basis, we have had very strong representations from various groups throughout the country to present a larger program.

Mr. ROGERS. Including the Association of Research Libraries, the American Library Association

Mr. Bow. It is not difficult to get them to come into a program. Mr. MUMFORD. We did not solicit them. They have strongly urged us to present the program.

Mr. Bow. For any program the Government may get into whether in the library field or whatever it may be, you can always find many people who will come in and ask the Government to spend more money and to expand its services.

That is all, Mr. Chairman.

POSSIBLE SIZE OF PROGRAM

Mr. NORRELL. I have a few more questions I want to ask.

What do you envision as the ultimate size of this project if we commence it, both as to dollars and foreign currencies? I believe you propose that this be a gradual program.

Mr. ROGERS. First of all, in many respects the program which we have proposed this year is a 6-month program, because insofar as the acquisition of materials and their cataloging is concerned we do not anticipate this could be established in less than 6 months; so the funds are predicated on that basis. However, there are expenses in this particular budget that would not be recurring, such as the cost of the

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