But it seems to me that we are further encroaching upon the rights of private business, when the Government is going to get out a publication that will supplement the work that they have been performing for business houses, attorneys, and accountants throughout the country.

If there were any complaints being received, that would be a different matter; but I can say that I have talked to about 75 Members of Congress about this very situation, and without exception, every one of them are in the position that I am relative to securing requests for Government regulations and Executive orders.

It really seems to me, if the people of the country who are affected by these orders, were not able to secure them, they certainly would appeal to their Members of Congress. That seems reasonable.

I do feel that this subcommittee-while I do not want to prolong the hearings should get the heads of the various agencies that issue the regulations and those in charge of the Executive orders, the officials in the State Department, and let them come before the subcommittee and tell you their experiences.

My only purpose in introducing this resolution is to try to protect the taxpayers, and try to keep another Government bureau from spreading out. I realize it is going to be a very, very hard matter to repeal the act, but I do think there is merit to the contention that it is absolutely unnecessary to publish the Federal Register. You are going to publish it 5 days a week.

I repeat, sir, that if those who are affected by Government regulations and Executive orders are unable to secure them, the first place that they would go would be to their Congressmen and their Senators; and in the absence of any such requests, it seems to me we are embarking upon a useless agency.

The Superintendent of Documents of the Government Printing Office, yesterday, when I asked him about the expenses involved, said he understood the law to be that the price would be set, and they thought that they would charge a price that would enable the Government to print and distribute the Federal Register without any cost to the Government. I asked, "On the basis of what you have already received in the form of requests, what do you think that price would have to be, in order to pay the expense of printing of the Federal Register"?

He replied, "I couldn't or wouldn't even suggest a price."

I have not anything further to say, except I feel we have made a mistake, and if Congress has made a mistake, we should correct that mistake. We should not let this thing go on, unless we find out that the people interested are unable to secure regulations and Executive orders.

Mr. RAMSEY. Before the Supreme Court decisions, did you favor the Register, or not?

Mr. COCHRAN. I did not.

Mr. RAMSEY. You never favored it?

Mr. COCHRAN. I never heard of it until after I got back, after I was sick last year.

Mr. RAMSEY. You know we held long hearings about it, last year? Mr. COCHRAN. I said that at the outset, Mr. Ramsey. I was in the hospital at that time. I simply say this to explain why I did not oppose the bill when it was considered.

Mr. RAMSEY. We went over it for a month or two last year.

Mr. COCHRAN. I admit that; I admitted that when the bill was passed last year, I was away. I was away from the 29th of April until the 1st of January.

Mr. RAMSEY. I think it was the unanimous opinion of the committee last year that it was necessary and we ought to do it.

Mr. COCHRAN. With all due respect to your judgment, I have given you my view, and I do think it is not necessary. However, I say this is an unusual proceeding, to repeal an Act before it actually goes into effect.

Mr. ALLEN. We do not repeal. We amend the act by the pending bill.

Mr. MICHENER. We have done that in some other things, but I can see this is necessary, if you are going to have legislation, with penalties, written by bureaus. One of the principal reasons why the law was enacted was because regulations were made, specifically, under the N. R. A. and people prosecuted clear through to the Supreme Court of the United States, only to find there was not such a law and the regulations have been repealed.

There were cases where telegrams were sent from Washington headquarters to lumber dealers in the West, and then were arrested for the violation of some order made by some clerk embodied in a telegram, and when you wanted to find it, you could not find it, at all; and it was our thought that, if people were going to jail, they should at least have somewhere, somehow, some place where they could find out what the law was, and this seems to be the only sensible thing.

Mr. COCHRAN. Before you came in, Mr. Michener, I stated that I have very seldom received requests for Executive orders or regulations.

You have been here a long time. You have been a member of this committee for a long time. Naturally, every lawyer in your district knows you. I leave it to you, to state whether you are in the same position that I am in, as to receiving requests.

Mr. MICHENER. Yes, I can answer that. I do not receive a lot of inquiries, but I did receive a lot when we were making orders down here in bureaus, day after day, affecting the business of the country, and the people wanted to know what the law was and where it was to be found. If we could have a register, or somewhere where these new laws that were made daily went through some clearing house, where we could locate them when we get those requests, telegrams and otherwise, which we could call up and at least find out something about from some central point

Mr. COCHRAN. I will admit that was the condition that existed at the time that the National Recovery Administration was in operation, and that there were even people working in the N. R. A. who did not know what they were doing. We all know that, but when the N. R. A. is out of existence

Mr. CELLER. What about the Agricultural Adjustment Administration; how about the Pure Food and Drug Administration?

Mr. COCHRAN. I just told you about that.

Mr. CELLER. You only told us of certain persons asking these bureau heads for rules and regulations, and that you were told that many applicants had not applied. Many do not apply because these rules and regulations are not readily obtainable; they are not in any bound volumes; they are not in any law libraries.

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Furthermore, the mere fact that you, as a Congressman, or I, as a Congressman, or Congressman Michener has not received any requests is no criterion.

For example, the American Bar Association, comprising thousands of lawyers all over the country, approved in principle and substance the bill that we passed. The American Medical Association, which also has reason to have at hand, clearly and early, when regulations are issued, these regulations, has likewise indicated the desirability of having this statute passed; and it was because of these many requests from organizations of that kind, including newspapers all over the country and newspaper organizations, that I offered this bill; and it is strange, nevertheless true, that while I was working on the bill, there was a group in the Department of Justice also working on a bill at the same time.

I stress that because you seemed to imply, in your communications to me, that you were taken somewhat by surprise and that we should have waited possibly until you returned from the hospital.

Mr. COCHRAN. You do not need to make such a remark. I simply stated I was sick to explain why I did not oppose the bill when it was before the House.

Mr. CELLER. I am glad that you feel that way about it. There was no attempt made to put anything over on anybody. This matter has been going on for almost a year. We have here in the audience Professor Griswold, of Harvard University, who will testify momentarily, and he has been working on such a plan for a very long period of time.

Certainly, if man's safety is to be put in jeopardy, as in the "hot oil" case and many other cases to come, based upon Executive orders involving criminal penalties, somebody ought to know where these orders are, and where they are readily obtainable. Congressmen are not generally publicized as being the medium whereby these orders may be obtained. In other words, people do not apply to us generally for these orders and departmental regulations.

Now, in the last few months, for example, the President issued 674 Executive orders, aggregating approximately 1,400 pages. Where are those Executive orders? They are supposed

Mr. COCHRAN. I will give you the answer.

Mr. CELLER. They are supposed to be filed in the State Department. Now, this is what the American Bar Association says about that:

The practice of filing Executive orders with the Department of State is not uniformly or regularly followed, and the totals are really greater than one would imagine. Some orders are retained or buried in the files of Government departments; some are confidential and are not published; and a practice as to the printing and publishing of orders is not uniform. Some orders are made known and available rather promptly after their approval. The publication of others may be delayed a month or so, with subsequent confusion in number. The comparatively large number of recent orders which incorporate provisions purporting to impose criminal penalties by way of fine and imprisonment for violation, is without numerical precedent in the history of the Government.

That is the result of the deliberations of a committee of the American Bar Association.

Mr. COCHRAN. If you want to write down a reference to any Executive order that has been issued, or any rule or regulation that has been issued by the Government, that has legal effect, write it

down and I will get it for you. Go ahead and write it down, I will get it for you.

Mr. CELLER. There are, naturally, lawyers in the far reaches of the country and doctors in the far reaches of the country and thousands upon thousands of other civilians that have not the facilities that you or I have in that regard.

Mr. COCHRAN. Suppose the President should issue an Executive order providing that every Government agency should have a place where the rules and regulations and Executive orders should be kept, would that not then be sufficient? You would know where to go to get them. That would be the place to get them, and that would correct a condition that might be existing at this time and that would save the taxpayers money.

The only reason that I mentioned that I was sick, Mr. Celler, was that I felt that a Member of Congress who is opposed to legislation should oppose it at the proper time. it at the proper time. If I had been here, I would have exercised my right to have opposed it at that time, and I am not asking that the committee or Congress or anybody delay anything for me. We all have ideas of our own importance, Government officials as well as Congressmen, but I felt that I had a duty to perform when I conscientiously believe that it is an absolute waste of Government funds to appropriate this money to get out the Federal Register and bound volumes, of the regulations and Executive orders that have been issued in the past; and that is the reason I introduced the resolution, and that is the reason I am here this morning to defend it. I repeat I do not blame these gentlemen for being down here this morning for the purpose of defending their positions.

Mr. DUFFEY of New York. Mr. Chairman

Mr. CELLER. In the first place nearly all who are here this morning, have no positions to defend. They are disinterested witnesses. Secondly, the set-up saves the taxpayers money. Thirdly, the evil reached by my bill could not be cured by any Presidential proclamation, mentioned by the gentleman.

Mr. COCHRAN. As I say, if I were in their positions, I would be here myself, probably. But I am talking from my 25 years' experience in this building and in the Senate Building, and I know what I am talking about when I tell you that I can always get you any Executive order or regulation that has been issued, that is in effect. Mr. RAMSAY. The testimony here was, at the hearing, that there were orders that the Department did not know about and could not even find.

Mr. COCHRAN. I will eliminate the N. R. A.

Mr. RAMSAY. Not the N. R. A. I am not talking about the

N. R. A.

Mr. COCHRAN. Very few knew what they were doing in the N. R. A. Nothing but confusion. Everyone admits that. It is a thing of the past. Mr. Celler knows as well as I do, because he lives in one of the biggest ports in the world, that every custom agent in the United States has a customs regulation in 24 hours.

Mr. RAMSAY. What I am talking about here is that there was testimony during the hearings that orders that would send men to jail could not even be found. That is what I am talking about.

Mr. COCHRAN. You will not find that in the Pure Food and Drug Division or other old properly organized agencies. You take the

chemical houses-and I have two of the largest chemical houses in the world in St. Louis, and never, at any time in my service here, have they asked me for a regulation from a Government agency. Why? Because they have them just as fast as the mails can bring them to them.

Mr. CELLER. Mr. Duffy, did you want to ask a question?

Mr. COCHRAN. They never have asked me. I know them, personally, the heads of those concerns, and I know if they wanted something of that kind, they would get in touch with me.

Mr. MICHENER. You are to be commended, rather than criticised, because you are one of those

Mr. COCHRAN. I am coming in here to state my case.

Mr. MICHENER. You are one of those men in Congress who stand up and say what you think, ordinarily.

Mr. COCHRAN. Thank you, Mr. Michener. I am going to do that as long as I am here.

Mr. MICHENER. If we had more men who would do that very thing, Congress would be a whole lot better off.

Mr. DUFFY of New York. If, as a matter of law

Mr. COCHRAN. I have nothing further to say.

Mr. DUFFY of New York. Mr. Cochran, there is only one point that I want to stress. I agree with you 100 percent. If I thought that law that we passed last year was merely a service to the Congressmen, to their constituents-and that was not even suggested at our hearings last year I do not so interpret the law and do not look upon it in that way, at all. It is merely that these departments are being given legislative functions more and more, and just as we have the reports of the statutes in bound form for reference, these legislative acts should also have some record of that kind, just as definite as the statutes themselves.

That is my reaction to the hearings last year as to the need for this legislation.

Mr. COCHRAN. I would like to leave with the subcommittee the hearings on the independent offices appropriation bill. I know we all do not have a chance to look over the hearings, but I would like for the committee to read Mr. Kennedy's testimony. I would like for the committee to see the discussion that he had with Mr. Woodrum, in reference to what they proposed to do, and how Mr. Woodrum cautioned them that they were going beyond the original concept.

I do not want to see another Government agency spring up, because we all know, after they spring up, how they spread.

Mr. DUFFY of New York. I think Mr. Cochran feels that this whole situation should be reviewed, with reference to collecting orders that have been issued, so that these acts that have been declared unconstitutional-we are not going to waste a lot of money on collecting those Executive orders that are dead now and of no effect, or not valid in any way.

Mr. COCHRAN. To show you how you are going to have a duplication of work, there is in the House, today, passed by the Senate it is either on the Speaker's desk or over in the House committee-a resolution by Senator Hayden, providing that the Veterans' Bureau shall compile the veterans acts; and across from each paragraph in the act, "the regulation that affects that part of the act." That has already been passed by the Senate, and it is pending it is either on the Speaker's desk or has been referred to a committee.