Now, just to give you an idea of what is being done, the Bureau of Internal Revenue gets out its regulations in pamphlet form. You can secure a copy of that by calling up Mr. Russell, the deputy commissioner, and he will send it down by messenger, if you want it that

way.

You can get any regulation you want from the Customs Division the same way. You can get any regulation you want from the Bureau of Animal Industry, or the Pure Food and Drug Department, or any other agency of the Government the same way, if you get in touch with them and ask them for it.

I do think that, if you are going ahead with the Federal Register, we ought to stop the Government agencies from going ahead with the work they have been performing; and when we do stop them, then provide for a reduction in personnel, because, if you do not, they are going to keep their employees and that is going to be paid out of the Treasury even if you discontinue their activities in this respect.

If we are going to stop this spending of money that we hear about every day on the floor of the House, the only way to stop it is to discontinue the creation of new agencies and the spreading of agencies that have been created.

Mr. MICHENER. Following that line out, do you not think that it is in the interest of economy and clarity and that it would be better to have one central office where all of this work is done, and one place where all of these regulations are filed, rather than the numerous places in the various departments? Let us consolidate and do away with some of these useless agencies, is my idea.

Mr. COCHRAN. Yes; I will admit that, if you provide for the transfer of the Government agencies that are now doing the work, of the employees to the Federal agency, they can do that work; and if you don not do that, you will get no reduction-you will get absolutely no reduction in expenditures.

Mr. CELLER. Would you let Mr. Kennedy answer that?

B. R. KENNEDY. Mr. Chairman, the total number of employees contemplated for the Federal Register for the next fiscal year is only 15. If you transfer to us all of these people from the various agencies, we would have an enormous organization. We are only going to have 15 employees.

Mr. MICHENER. We are going to fire them, not transfer them. Mr. KENNEDY. I thought Mr. Cochran said "transfer" them. Mr. MICHENER. We believe, with Roosevelt, that we should consolidate these things and get rid of some of these bureaus and agencies. Mr. COCHRAN. I will fully agree with what Mr. Michener says, that it will be a good idea to have one central distribution of these documents in one agency-let it be the Federal Register-but I do not see the necessity of publishing the Federal Register.

If it is determined that the people throughout the country will not buy the Federal Register, and that it is a costly instrument to be published at the expense of the taxpayers, will your committee be willing to repeal the law?

Mr. DUFFY of New York. You mean to say the publication of it? Mr. COCHRAN. In other words, if the people refuse to buy the Federal Register, and you are going to publish it 5 days a week, then the Government is going to have to pay for the publication of it.

Mr. CELLER. What has that got to do with the principle of the Federal Register legislation?

Mr. COCHRAN. Then the money does not amount to anything, at all? If that is the case we are not thinking about the money, at all, just thinking about the principle of the thing?

Mr. CELLER. I am thinking about the principle as much as you are, as well as the money. If it is something that is right, that should be done, it should be done whether there is 5 cents involved or $5,000 involved, but we have to wait and see. Your question is a rather pointed one and I do not want to answer it without any contact as to the experience of the Federal Register. Let us wait a while and see what happens.

Mr. COCHRAN. How about waiting a while on the compilation? Mr. Connor was before my committee, and I asked him to estimate the number of volumes it was going to take, and he told me he could not estimate it, and when I pressed him, he said 10 to 20 volumes.

I saw a piece in the paper where Mr. Kennedy made a speech the other day, that indicated that voluminous records were coming in to him of old Executive orders and regulations that have been issued. The Civil Service Commission publishes the orders that affect the personnel of Government employees. Are they all to be reprinted? Mr. KENNEDY. We are not going to publish anything that affects only Government employees, Mr. Cochran,

Mr. COCHRAN. They not only publish that, but they publish the order, the minute the President issues an Executive order, giving the individual position in the classified service, without regard to the civil-service examination. They give the reason for the President's act, in his own language. In other words, a woman is given a position with the Government, without regard to civil service, because her husband met his death in line of duty, or because he was disabled, or something of that kind, and he did not come under the Compensation Act. That has been done, time and time again, and the Civil Service Commission publishes the order. That used to be included in their annual report all of the time.

I do not want to delay you gentlemen here too much, so I will stop. Mr. CELLER. I would like to put in the record at this point a letter received from our colleague, Congressman Woodrum, of Virginia, under date of February 20, 1936, which reads as follows:

FEBRUARY 20, 1936.

MY DEAR MR. CELLER: I am advised that you will have a hearing on tomorrow, Friday, on the bill introduced by our colleague, Mr. Cochran, to repeal the Federal Register Act. I regret very much that my absence from the city will prevent my personal attendance at your hearing.

Without going into a lot of detail, I will say that the Appropriations Committee of the House (both the Deficiency Subcommittee and the Committee on Independent Offices, each of which I am a member) has gone into the matter most carefully with reference to the establishment of the Federal Register. In my judgment, there is a very definite and positive need for this publication and for the compilation for which the act provides.

It seems to me that the set-up is modest and as economical as possible under the circumstances. The cost of printing will, of course, be by far the major item. In my judgment as a Member of the House, it would be a very serious mistake to interfere with the organization which has been set up and which is now busily engaged in carrying out the mandate of Congress.

With best wishes, I am,

Yours very truly,

CLIFTON A. WOODRUM.

Mr. COCHRAN. I ask to have the record also show, right at this point that Mr. Woodrum was one of the gentlemen I spoke to as to how

many requests he received for regulations and Executive orders, and he said he was in the same position I am.

Mr. CELLER. This is a matter for the convenience of the entire Nation not only for your constituents and mine. I would like to put in the record the number of Executive orders and proclamations issued by the various Presidents from Lincoln down to Franklin D. Roosevelt. I will not read it all, but you will notice when you read the record, the increasing numbers of Executive orders issued by the Presidents.

The statement referred to is as follows:

Mr. CELLER. Our colleague, Mr. Shanley, is present. Do you wish to say anything, Mr. Shanley?

STATEMENT OF HON. JAMES A. SHANLEY, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM CONNECTICUT

Mr. SHANLEY. Mr. Chairman, I should like to add a short statement to what has been said. I have another committee appointment, and I would like the privilege of adding to the record the statement that I will send in.

Mr. CELLER. We will be very happy to have it.

Mr. SHANLEY. Mr. Chairman, I have listened with interest to the criticisms of Mr. Cochran, and I know the sincerity with which he proposes his views, but I do believe that, throughout the hearings which have been held both in the subcommittee, in the full committee, and also in the Appropriations Committee, as well as my high respect for the gentlemen who are charged with the duty of carrying through this new project, permit me to say that I think that the subject has been well covered, and as such, it merits its continuance.

I certainly believe that those who are in position throughout the country to know as to the availability and obtainability of needed information that they are in better position to speak of the merits. of this than I am. I believe that, while we, as Congressmen, can get these publications readily, the possibility of having these regulations on our desks, not only on our desks but on the desks of libraries and other institutions that need them throughout the country, speak so highly for it that I am only going to mention the subject and dismiss it.

I thank you, and I would like an opportunity of extending and revising my remarks.

Mr. MICHENER. Your interest is only the interest of a Member of Congress?

Mr. SHANLEY. Yes; but I would like to say that I am very much interested in the institution, itself. I have a high regard for one of the men who is there and

Mr. MICHENER. You have not any constituents or personal friends connected with the personnel?

Mr. SHANLEY. Yes; I have. The Director of the Register is a very personal friend of mine, and comes from my own district.

Mr. MICHENER. I speak of that because that is one of the questions and one of the objections to this thing as raised by Mr. Cochran, that we, as Members of Congress, will always be looking out for jobs for our constituents and friends; and it is always interesting, when a Member appears in behalf of additional employees, or a new bureau, to know whether he has any constituents connected with it. I have been right where you are now, on other occasions, so I know.

Mr. SHANLEY. I certainly do not want anybody to think I have not any interest in it. I have a direct, personal interest. I know Mr. Kennedy. I know this consolidation that Mr. Cochran wishes is something that he, in my judgment, will probably recommend in a year or two. I come from New England and I am just as much against the expansion of expense as Mr. Cochran is, although I have not the sincere vehemence or ability or experience in the legislative halls of Congress, but I do believe there is room for great improvement. I believe that this consolidation and centralization is going to afford not only Mr. Kennedy, but the men who are his direct superiors, an opportunity to cut out the various publications of the Government. Take the Congressional Record, we publish that and it is in my files. Maybe I will not use it more than once a year, but there is not any reason for not obtaining it. I happened to be a library official. I spent 4 years of my life in the public libraries of New Haven, and I have worked in the Yale library, and I know the need of consolidation, and I believe it is always an easy thing to say, "We are going to wipe out this bureau", because we know that particular bureau; but you know as well as I do that it is difficult to wipe out a bureau and throw those men out of jobs. But that is a matter for the future and this is an immediate need. There is an immediate need for such a service as that.

Mr. COCHRAN. Will you permit me to ask the gentleman a question? Mr. CELLER. Yes.

Mr. COCHRAN. He can qualify as an expert with reference to libraries, and I would like for the record to show how often during the period that you were in the library anybody was looking for a Government regulation or Executive order?

Mr. SHANLEY. Well, I cannot say that my attention was ever directed to it, but that is not the idea. For example, I could look into Who is Who in the library, and probably not once during the course of that year did anybody ever want that book, but the mere fact that it was there and available meant a great deal.

If we want to wipe out everything that is not necessary in this life of ours, we would be reduced to a bare minimum not only of clothing, but everything else that we need and use. It is not a question of momentary use, it is a question of availability.

I hope you will avail yourself of the opportunity and get a lot of subscribers to the Register, when it is issued.

Mr. CELLER. Great Britain and other countries of Europe furnish a register of exactly the type that we are contemplating publishing in this bill.

Mr. COCHRAN. When you told me that the other day I told you that was one good reason why we should not do it.

Mr. HANCOCK of New York. There is some talk of this Register taking the place of something else. What goes out when this comes in? Mr. CELLER. I do not know what that means.

Mr. HANCOCK of New York. What economy is there about the Register?

Mr. MICHENER. We just discussed that before you came in; that was for consolidating these various bureaus in the several Departments now carrying on this work into one central bureau, where the work may all be obtainable, these bulletins and orders, where we will just have to call up once instead of a dozen times, if we want to find out something.

Mr. CELLER. Now, Judge Harold M. Stephens, Associate Justice, United States Court of Appeals, is here and would like to say something on the bill. He, Mr. Cochran, is one who is not interested in the employees in the bureau, or interested in anybody employed there. STATEMENT OF JUSTICE HAROLD M. STEPHENS, COURT OF APPEALS, DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

Judge STEPHENS. Mr. Chairman, I particularly am accentuated by both a public and personal interest; and perhaps I should also say, as a student of the subject of administrative law. My official interest flows from the fact that I was an assistant attorney general, and later assistant to the Attorney General, during the present administration, when this Federal Register was projected.

I was a member of the committee appointed by the Executive Council serving under the present President, to make a study of the possible necessity for the Federal Register.

I also have some official interest in my position as Federal judge, because, particularly in the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia, where a very large amount of our work has to do with national legislation and regulations issued thereunder, we feel some necessity of accuracy and availability for the regulations.

I may say I have a personal interest in appearing also, or would have had, could I have anticipated that Mr. Cochran would refer to the lawyer who agued the oil cases before the Supreme Court of the United States, because I was that lawyer.

I might say, also, that during a year of post-graduate work at Harvard Law School, I gave the considerable portion of my time to the study of administrative law, and I am the author of a small book on the subject.

In my view, the N. R. A.-Oil case aspect of this situation merely spectacularized or brought to the public attention the need for the Federal Register, which has been insistent for a great many years.

The development of administrative law and administrative agencies in this country, of course, has been a little but later than in England,

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