kind of piano that had a certain tone to it. If it were played over the radio the patentee could charge another fee. There is no limit to where this thing can go.

I am not going to take more time of the committee unless there are some questions that you want to ask me, because there are men here representing broadcasters of this country who can give you the facts in much more detail.

I want to say this to the committee, that when I introduced the bill I never dreamed of the proportions it would reach, and I did not expect the committee to get any such mass of telegrams as they have gotten. I am frank to say that I have been amazed at the proportions this thing has reached. I am informed by the telegraph company that more telegrams have come in here on this bill than have ever come on any bill, except that for the declaration of war in 1917. Of course, you can readily see the reason for it. The people who have receiving sets want free radio programs continued, and I want to call your attention in that respect to the fact that just a few days ago in Kansas City a broadcasting station announced that they were not going to be able to continue to give these programs unless their listeners were willing to maintain the station; and thousands of dollars have been pouring in, mere contributions, in order to keep those broadcasting stations going.

We are faced in this country with a situation that either the radio broadcasting stations must be given the largest freedom possible to entertain their hearers, or we will drive good up-to-date music from the air or we will drive all the little stations out of business.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you considered whether or not there should be a distinction between a broadcasting station which is getting a profit and one that is not? For instance, not an indirect profit that might result, such as the good will of a newspaper, but where a station is sending out a program and getting direct pay for it and these other stations of which you spoke that are doing nothing but what they believe will result in profit to the public generally?

Senator DILL. I think there is a great deal to be said for that viewpoint. In other words, take the Radio Corporation, for instance, that is making enormous profits on their patents, and in order to increase the sale of those patented parts for receiving sets they furnish very wonderful programs throughout the country, and they do make a great profit as the result of the increased sales. I can see a good deal of reason from the standpoint of the publisher of the music for his argument.

Senator STANLEY. How would you like to amend this bill in such a way as to not only apply to music but to the patents of the Westinghouse and other companies on the mechanism of the radio, and make it all free. For instance, they tell me that there is a bulb used in broadcasting that costs about 60 cents and sells for about $8. If we could take the patent off that bulb while we take it off these composers upon the copyrights, it would help very much to make the air free.

Senator DILL. It would, hardly be right to say that they should not have a patent fee on their bulb. The inventor is entitled to a fee, but not two or three fees. If you have bought a bulb you ought not to be charged again. I would say, in reply to that query,

that I would not think it wise to propose a bill that would take the patent rights off of these.

Senator STANLEY. I am in thorough harmony with your idea of giving the people all the music and all the eloquence and everything they want and give it to them free because the people like that and I like to please the people.

Senator DILL. I think it might be unwise to attempt to mix the patent law that might affect radio patents with this copyright proposition that affects musical production. A separate bill might be introduced on that subject. I think it probably unwise to combine

the two.

Mr. Chairman, Mr. McDonald, of the broadcasters, with your permission, will be the first speaker.

STATEMENT OF MR. E. F. McDONALD, JR., PRESIDENT OF THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BROADCASTERS, CHICAGO, ILL.

Mr. McDONALD. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, the National Association of Broadcasters is an organization of the broadcasters brought together for the purpose of bettering music and bringing a better spirit of feeling and goodfellowship among the broadcasters who represent a great and varied interest.

Three years ago there was not a single broadcasting station in the whole United States. Two and a half years ago we had only three. Of the total number of broadcasting stations, which is well over 500 now, I believe it will be pointed out to you that there are only about 14 manufacturers of radio that are broadcasters. The rest of them are educational institutions, newspapers, department stores and the like. There are 55 newspapers now that are broadcasters. A little over a year ago the total number of broadcasting stations in the United States reached nearly 600. In one single month there were over 100 new broadcasting stations opened. That number has now dropped down from 600 to about 530.

The CHAIRMAN. What is your definition of a broadcasting station? Mr. McDONALD. Any station that transmits music, news, or entertainment not for profit. That is, there are stations that handle messages for toll. We are not permitted to do that under our license. They distinguish between a broadcasting license and a commercial license in that way. We can take nothing for toll. We can handle no communication. Direct or point to point communication is prohibited on any broadcasting station.

I do not believe that there is a single broadcaster in the United States that up to last October even dreamed what his listening audience was. We received a great many letters, it is true, but last October we put on in Chicago what was known as the listeners' vote. We asked the listening audience what they desired to hear most over the radio, whether popular, jazz, grand opera, classical, religious, political talks, or what. In a period of 12 days one single station brought in 170,000 letters, postal cards, and telegrams.

Conservative advertising men have told us that not more than one in fifty could we expect to respond; that is, not more than one in fifty of our listeners. We had no way up to that time of determining how many listeners we had, because the number of radio sets that

have been sold as radio sets is in the minority. Most of the sets that are in operation to-day have been wound up by not only the youngsters but by the tired business men, and all they need is a quaker oats box and a little wire and some batteries. You will see by that that it would be impossible for us to keep a check on the number of radio receiving sets throughout the United States.

Based on the returns that we received, conservative advertising men have estimated that not more than 1 out of 50 would answer. That gives us a listening audience on that single station of over 8,000,000 people; in other words, one broadcasting station with a greater circulation than the combined newspapers of the State of Illinois, including Chicago.

About three weeks ago we made another test. We asked whether or not the public were in favor of a modification of the Volstead Act, and told them we would accept only paid telegrams in this vote. We put on two capable, clever talkers, representing the wet interests and two representing the dry interests. This vote started at 10 o'clock at night and continued until 10 o'clock the following night. In those 24 hours we received between forty-seven and forty-eight thousand paid telegrams.

Senator BROUSSARD. What was the result of that vote?

Senator DILL. May I interrupt to say that that vote has been placed in the Congressional Record, and I think if the committee will agree we will get a copy of that and insert it in these hearings, because I think it will be of interest?

The CHAIRMAN. Well, we will not have any prohibition hearings. Senator BROUSSARD. What was the result of that vote?

Mr. McDONALD. The vote was 3 to 1 and wet, and every State in the Union was heard from except West Virginia.

The CHAIRMAN. And that is wet.

Mr. McDONALD. Incidentally, gentlemen, those telegrams came to us from every State in the Union, every Province in Canada, and we did not count the Canadian votes. We had one message from Cuba, two from ships out in the Pacific, and three from ships in the Atlantic.

Our stations in Chicago are heard nightly and consistently in the wintertime. In Alaska, Hawaii, Central America, Cuba, the virgin Islands, Labrador, and by Donald B. MacMillan, who is now frozen in within 11° of the North Pole, in the little ship the Bowden. That is the range of the Chicago stations.

On a special test that was made a week ago last Saturday one Chicago station was heard in the south island of New Zealand, in Sydney, Australia, and by the British Fleet lying off Tasmania, meaning that we are reaching 99 per cent of the population of the world. There is only one country that does not come in our circle, and that is Java. We bisect Australia and we bisect Tasmania.

I have touched on that subject of MacMillan. There is a man up there in that frozen North with a radio set on board, a radio set that overcomes the greatest hardship of the North, the solitude. MacMillan told me a year ago that he prayed for five nights last year that he would not have to shoot his best friend on the expedition, as Greely did. Greely shot two of his men. That was caused by that great terrible solitude, everything going out and nothing coming in.

Every Wednesday we put on a program at midnight for MacMillan from the Zenith in Chicago and give him a résumé of the week's news. I touch on that only because of the other letters that have come in on that MacMillan program. We received letters from the isolated districts in northern Canada telling us that their mail was cut off after November 1 and that they could hear nothing from the outside world until April 1. One man in writing in said, "Please do not forget to tell us if another war starts or if they start the same old one over again."

The same thing applies to your lighthouses. To touch on the edutional angle of radio, I have before me a very good example. In January we put on a grand opera star at a Chicago station. We put on this grand opera star incognito and told the public that we wanted them to telegraph us and tell us who she was. We identified her only as Madame X. Now grand opera is broadcasted twice a week from the Chicago stations during the grand opera season, and they are familiar with the grand opera stars as they were not two years ago. They had heard this artist and all our other artists in their various rôles. They had no way of identifying this lady except by her voice. We received 4,700 telegrams in a period of two and a half hours, and over 3,000 of them identified her as Florence McBeth. The rest of them identified her as everybody from Adaline Patti to Jennie Lind, and one old man in Buffalo wired us: "In my 88 years I have heard only two songs. The first time was when Jennie Lind sang Home, Sweet Home, and to-night when your Madame X sang Home, Sweet Home; and I don't care who she is.'

Senator Dill has pointed out in his talk that a number of taxes are already collected for the music. We as broadcasters do not favor or look with favor on this method of this Kansas City station of which Senator Dill spoke. I do not believe in collecting from the public. There have been, I believe, two or three attempts to collect from the public, and we do not believe that it is fair. We do not believe that Kansas City will continue to collect. Why should they contribute to one broadcasting station and not all of them?

Up to a year ago the broadcasting stations throughout the United States played whatever music they wanted-whatever they considered as good music. Then came this American society of authors, composers, and publishers and made demands upon us to pay them for the right of using their music. We pointed out to them the fact that when sheet music was sold the tax was paid on it; but they said, no, there is another tax granted to us under the copyright law which permits us again to collect if the music is played for public performance for profit.

We pointed out to them that our orchestras-that is, orchestras that were in the various hotels-were paying that tribute or tax to the American society-the second tax. They first paid on the sheet music. Next they paid for the privilege of playing for the dining rooms in the various hotels, and the American society said, “But if you hang a microphone in front of that orchestra, you must pay it again.'

Then, they have also stated, as the Senator pointed out, that if the little soft-drink proprietor down in Peoria wants to put in a receiving set to entertain his customers, a fourth license must be paid.

Probably most of you know of the famous Edgewater Beach Hotel case- -a hotel owned by one interest and the dining room owned by the same interest and the broadcasting station owned by another interest, where the American Society of Authors, Composers, and Publishers refused to renew the license of the dining room of the Edgewater Beach Hotel unless there was also a license taken out for the broadcasting station owned by other interests.

In other words, they refused to sell to the one room unless the product was bought in the other room, even though we told them we did not want to use their music.

Unless you want to ask me some questions, I am going to turn the subject over from this point on to Mr. Klugh, our executive chairman. The CHAIRMAN. What is the source of your profit?

Mr. McDONALD. We are manufacturers of radio sets, and we started broadcasting at a time we thought there was going to be a shortage of broadcasting stations. If you were to ask me now why we continue it, I would say simply because I have got that fever, the thrill of broadcasting. I love it. If we were to stop broadcasting tomorrow, and if every manufacturer of radio apparatus were to stop broadcasting tomorrow, our profit would go on just exactly the same. The profit of the radio manufacturer is in the sale of the radio sets. Senator DILL. You say "we." You mean the particular station; not the Broadcasters' Association?

Mr. McDONALD. No; the manufacturers of radio apparatus, of which there are only 14, I believe, that are broadcasters. If they were all to stop tomorrow, the profit of the radio industry would go on just exactly the same, because we are only a small minority.

The CHAIRMAN. Those broadcasting stations that are not conducted by manufacturers; how do they get any profit?

Mr. McDONALD. They do not get any profit.

The CHAIRMAN. How can they afford to employ the good services of distinguished singers?

Mr. McDONALD. I will speak only of our own station, Senator, in Chicago. During this last spring we have given to listeners performances by Florence McBeth, by Madam Claudia Muzio; by Mingetti, Mary Fabian, Sconmellia and Lazzari, the best and finest talent we had in the Chicago Civic Opera Co., and not one penny has been paid to those artists. Those artists, however, do get remuneration in this way: when their voices are heard over the radio appointments come to them. For instance, Mrs. McBeth told me that she had spent considerable money in publicity; in fact, more than she should have spent, and that her one performance at the Zenith station in Chicago had meant more to her in actual return for appointments than all the money she had spent for publicity. There is no shortage of talent.

You touched on one point a while ago regarding stations collecting. I know of only one station in the United States that is making a charge for its services. At that station they are doing a wonderful work of development, and whatever remuneration they do receive, even from selling their services, does not being to cover one-tenth of the cost of the operation of that station, and I am speaking now of the American Telephone & Telegraph Co. They are the only ones that have charged for their services that I know of. They have a Washington station that is oftimes hooked up with that station.