Mr. ROUSH. That figure which you just gave us, is that the cost which would be borne by the Government?

Dr. HOLLOMON. It was the amount of money which would be authorized and we believe would be expended by the Federal Government. Mr. ROUSH. How much would it take for the first year?

Dr. HOLLOMON. Our preliminary estimate is something in the area of a million dollars.

Mr. ROUSH. How does this compare with the amount that industry is putting into this program, or do you know?

Dr. HOLLOMON. I can't quite say. I can tell you the approximate budget of USASI, for example. It has many other activities than the international activity. Their total budget last year is on the order of a million dollars, but much of the international representation was done by sort of gift and other private arrangement and the funds were never charged to the USASI. When the Bureau of Standards people would help, they are never charged.

I can't tell you the total real expenses. I can tell you a part of the out-of-pocket cost. Industry is now contributing to USASI about a million dollars a year. With the reorganization of ASA into USASI, I believe, and it is their hope that they will have a substantial increase in funding for all of their activities and I think you should also know that both the reorganization of ASA and the content of this bill were recommended some years ago and both of these are going at the same time.

Mr. ROUSH. What is the size of the staff in the Commerce Department now doing international standards work?

Dr. HOLLOMON. The only way I can tell you is how many people were engaged. I had this a moment ago.

Mr. CONABLE. They may have done other work, too.

Dr. HOLLOMON. Yes.

I can tell you, for example, how many trips away, how many days of travel, that sort of thing. Let's give just an estimate. Number of trips was 44; man-days of travel about a thousand; and direct and indirect costs, say, about $150,000.

Mr. ROUSH. If this bill should pass, do you anticipate that this number will increase?

Dr. HOLLOMON. Absolutely.

Mr. ROUSH. Have you made any estimates as to the number of people?

Dr. HOLLOMON. No, but the funding that we are talking about would totally include that, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. ROUSH. But you do not have an estimate as to the number of people who might become involved?

Dr. HOLLOMON. No, I don't have the estimate.

Mr. ROUSH. How often are these international conferences held? Dr. HOLLOMON. There are some 118 other committees. They have a semipermanent secretariat, someone working half or full time, and they cover a very large range of things. One of the committees is photography. This means that the standards have to be set for all elements of photographic equipment. The general attempt is to meet twice a year, but in some cases where there is a wider variety, the

technology is changed, they meet more frequently; in some cases they meet less frequently.

Mr. ROUSH. How many representatives from each country normally participate?

Dr. HOLLOMON. In any given standards, they are called participating people and observers. The number of committee members might be from 10 to 100.

Mr. ROUSH. I would assume that if this bill should pass that we would have both Government and industry people participating. Dr. HOLLOMON. Yes, sir; just as we do now.

Mr. ROUSH. Our activity would be increased.

Dr. HOLLOMON. Yes, sir; hopefully. The secretariat is the key to the thing. It is the fellow who is working all the time that is important to these activities. I would hope that this would double or triple in 3 or 4 years so this would mean that we would be represented in 30 of the secretariats rather than 10. It would be something of the order of Great Britain under these circumstances.

Mr. ROUSH. If this bill should pass, is it the intention of the Commerce Department to support the USÁSI in its request for a Federal charter? I understand that they will be requesting a Federal charter.

Dr. HOLLOMON. I think we would have to know what was in the Federal charter to be certain we would support it. I would say that the general tendency is that we would support the application of a general charter under certain conditions and we would have to take a look as to what that Federal charter authorizes them to be. One of the things it couldn't authorize them to be would be the only standardization body in the country. You can't take away from the Secretary of State his authority where there has been a treaty, but in general an appropriate Federal charter we would support; yes, sir.

Mr. ROUSH. Would it be the only body receiving support through grants and contracts?

Dr. HOLLOMON. Not necessarily. At the present time it is the body with the subordinates of it which is the primary agent in internationa! standardization. There are some other agencies that have to do with foods and drugs and so on. The USASI would be primary agent, I think. In the case of the information services, that does not need to be the case at all.

Mr. CONABLE. This may be a difficult question, but I wonder what was the genesis of this legislation; has this been in the works for some time: have there been a lot of complaints recently from American industry who wished they had participated in the past? What brought this legislation out?

Dr. HOLLOMON. Several things. I have a whole list here of case histories where our people, American industries, have complained about the restrictions or their inability to enter foreign markets because of international trade barriers. These have been a part of our international operation at the Department who thoroughly and completely support the legislation and have encouraged us in every way to participate in reducing these barriers.

On a number of occasions we have failed to participate and we have not been able to provide the funds because the industry association simply didn't have the wherewithal to do the job. But it really

started, this particular legislation, by the establishment of the LaQue committee 3 years ago. The Secretary of Commerce through an advisory committee established a committee under Frank LaQue and asked them to look into this. The reason he asked them was because the pressures were then clear as to the need to work more thoroughly in this, to deal with nontariff barriers and because of the inability to obtain information about standards. The LaQue committee reported to the Secretary on February 18, 1965, with certain basic recommendations. It recommended certain things. We went back to industry, to labor unions, to trade associations, to consumer groups and got their comments. As a consequence of that, this legislation was developed. Practices were reviewed and strengthened. The ASA proceeded to develop a new constitution and bylaws which they have now recently adopted in the State of New York and intend to obtain a charter. So, many pressures required a relook at this problem, but the main initiative was the committee which was referred to now in the standards industry as the LaQue report.

Mr. CONABLE. Have you been aware of any strong pressure against this legislation?

Dr. HOLLOMON. No. It would also support the development of standards domestically. It would actually support standardization. Industry in this country said if the Government puts money in organization they could. We backed off from that recommendation of the LaQue report. That is the only opposition that I know of.

Mr. ROUSH. Is there evidence, Mr. Secretary, that certain foreign nations have promoted standards specifically designed to freeze the United States out of certain markets?

Dr. HOLLOMON. It is hard to tell what people's motivations are, and I am not sure that this is the appropriate forum to be that explicit even if I knew, so I would like to defer that question and say there have been many questions in which standards have been set which have had as their consequence making it difficult for us entering the market. Mr. ROUSH. Could you give us examples of this?

Dr. HOLLOMON. I have a number of examples. Take, for example, 16-millimeter sound film. That standard was issued. We got it changed. The whole electrical business, of course, the difference in voltage in Europe with respect to electrical appliances creates a difficulty for the entry of U.S. appliances on the European market.

There has been recently a very large move in Europe to get standards of packages and packaged containers in which we did not participate thoroughly. We will have to redo the standards for our package sizes. These are not packages for the consumer, but packages in which goods are shipped and marked.

Mr. ROUSH. Is it possible that a nation or a group of nations could use this means to freeze us out of a particular market?

Dr. HOLLOMON. Well, I think it is possible. I think the only remedy to that is participation. I think the only remedy to having a group of people try to adopt standards which are incompatible with the easy flow of products in the market is to participate, deal with them on a nation-to-nation basis if they look really reprehensible. We have a very serious trade problem having to do with color television in Europe, and the lack of compatibility with the U.S. system. It is a gov

ernment-to-government problem, the Russian Government, the German Government, the French Government, and we are going to have great difficulty in entering that market, a very large market.

Mr. ROUSH. Was there U.S. participation in this particular conference?

Dr. HOLLOMON. I don't believe it occured early enough to anticipate the difficulty. I don't believe that we participated early enough and strongly enough to influence the result.

Mr. ROUSH. It has occurred to me that large businesses can pretty well take care of themselves on the question of standardization, but small businesses might reap the greater benefits in the solutions we are attempting to find through this legislation; is this true or not?

Dr. HOLLOMON. You are going to have here as I understand it some people from one or more of the large companies.

Where the product, the number of companies in this country is very small, and where they are already internationalized, let's take the oil companies, for example, I don't think they have much of a problem. I don't think that the automobile companies where we have four or five companies and so on have much of a problem, but where we have a larger number of companies, even where some of them are large and where they are not already engaged in international business, I think there are problems. So it would help the smaller companies or the companies that are just newly entering foreign markets. It would not help a company like IBM, which is already the dominant influence in the international computer market.

Mr. ROUSH. A large company might be happy with the situation as it exists?

Dr. HOLLOMON. I have never heard a comment from the larger companies that international standardization was not desirable.

Mr. ROUSH. Are there other questions?

(No response.)

Mr. ROUSH. Dr. Hollomon, we appreciate your coming here this morning and I am sure there will be other questions arise during the course of our hearings. We will propound these questions to you, and if you can give us your further cooperation by answering such questions we will be happy to hear from you.

Dr. HOLLOMON. I will be happy to cooperate in any way, and we will try to be prompt.

Mr. ROUSH. If there are no other questions the committee stands adjourned until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock.

(The biographical statement of Dr. Hollomon follows:)

BIOGRAPHICAL STATEMENT OF J. HERBERT HOLLOMON

J. Herbert Hollomon became Assistant Secretary of Commerce for Science and Technology in May 1962, having been nominated by President Kennedy and confirmed by the Senate. In this position he supervises the Patent Office; the National Bureau of Standards; the Environmental Science Services Administration: and the Office of State Technical Services. He also is the principal advisor on scientific and technical matters to the Secretary of Commerce, and he is a member of the Federal Council for Science and Technology, consultant to the President's Science Advisory Committee, and Chairman of the Interdepartmental Committee for Atmospheric Sciences.

Dr. Hollomon was with the General Electric Company for 18 years, as metallurgical researcher, Manager of Metallurgy and Ceramics Research, and General Manager of the General Engineering Laboratory.

He is author of a textbook on metallurgy, editor of a series of technical books, and author of many technical and general articles.

Professional societies to which he belongs include the American Society for Metals, of which he formerly was a trustee; the National Academy of Engineering, of which he is a founding member and a member of the Council; and the American Association for the Advancement of Science.

Dr. Hollomon has received such honors as the Raymond W. Rossiter Award of the American Institute of Mechanical Engineers; the Alfred Noble Award of the Combined Engineering Societies; the Army Legion of Merit; and the Rosenhain Medal from Great Britain's Institute of Metals (first American recipient). He was the Edward DeMille Campbell Memorial Lecturer, American Society for Metals, 1965.

He received the B.S., 1940, and the D.Sc., 1946, from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. He also has received honorary doctorates from Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Michigan Technological University, and Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute.

He has been an instructor at Harvard University School of Engineering and Applied Science and adjunct professor at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. He also has been affiliated with three other engineering schools and has directed several studies of engineering education.

(Whereupon, at 11:28 a.m., the committee adjourned until 10 a.m., Wednesday, September 21, 1966.)