I can think of the following example: Someone may write to the Reference Data Center, asking for special information. This would cost effort and time. If the Bureau had a fund which it derived from the sale, it could then use that money to help provide services, as it is doing in other areas at the present time.

I want to emphasize that I am not opposed to some reasonable compensation for the volumes. I would mean people would take them seriously, among other things. I am concerned about the problem of copyrights and also I am concerned about the possibility of charges being so great that individuals or organizations might be prevented from having the volumes.

Mr. WAGGONNER. Doctor, isn't the question there whether the Bureau of Standards has the constitutional right to usurp what might already be an existing copyright?

Dr. SEITZ. I don't know. I would not pretend to be an expert on the matter of copywriting though I have published a number of books. Mr. DADDARIO. Are you concerned that this section does involve the National Bureau of Standards in a copyright situation, and that this is complicated by the fact that it is under review by other committees of the Congress?

Dr. SEITZ. Yes, sir.

I would hope that any implementation of section 5 as it now reads would not result in pricing some standard reference data publications out of the reach of many of our younger scientists and engineers. Section 6 also gives us concern, for two reasons:

First, the Government, by adopting and using a mark or symbol of approval may be exposing itself to serious criticism in exceptional cases when erroneous or inaccurate data find their way into the standard reference data collections. This can always happen.

Second, in our opinion the appearance of giving authority to numerical data by a mark or seal of approval may not be acceptable to many of our able and productive scientists and engineers. Scientific data by its nature is subject to constant improvement as the skills and techniques of scientists steadily increase. Debate about the correctness of data is a continuing process. Nothing should occur to freeze or impede this discussion.

I may summarize by saying that I strongly support the overall purpose of the bill.

I think that the scientific community would unanimously agree with that statement. I want to point out, however, that sections 5, 6, and 7 introduce questions which should be considered with some

care.

Thank you very much.

Mr. DADDARIO. Thank you, Dr. Seitz.

Could you discuss the symbol as proposed in section 6 in a little greater detail? I ask you to do so because this has been a matter of concern to the committee. The possibility that the symbol would place any responsibility on the Government at all for accuracy is not likely since it is generally recognized that these figures should be taken for what they mean under the present circumstances. You do in a sense back up the concern the committee has shown. I do think your concept ought to be expanded a bit.

Dr. SEITZ. I have the feeling that if the compilation is as good as I suspect it will be, the mere fact that it comes from these volumes will be adequate. It would not be necessary to have another separate symbol associated with it.

Many, many scientists and engineers, in using the data in the International Critical Tables, which I mentioned earlier would, in a footnote, just say that they obtained the values from the International Critical Tables. The quality of the work was sufficiently well known that nothing else was needed to give the reader a notion of the general standard that was implied. I think that would be adequate.

Mr. DADDARIO. Unless the work is developed in such a way as to change the degree of quality necessary in the scientific community. Except for that, the symbol would neither add nor detract?

Dr. SEITZ. Exactly.

Mr. DADDARIO. The development of a way to make appropriate payments to the Commerce Department also has troubled us. You raised the point that younger scientists and engineers may be barred from obtaining this information when they need it. Would you give us further ideas on this? This question has been answered previously in this way. The value of the information would be shown if people were ready to pay for it.

Dr. SEITZ. Yes, I think some charge is completely reasonable. It means that people will not ask for the compilations unless they have a serious interest.

On the other hand, I think one serves the community by making the material available at what I call a reasonable fee, regarding it as a catalyst for international and national science.

Mr. DADDARIO. Mr. Mosher?

Mr. MOSHER. Dr. Seitz, as I understand your position, speaking for the scientific community, you are saying that this is an undertaking that needs to be done.

Dr. SEITZ. It is long overdue.

Mr. MOSHER. This need is not likely to be met by any other group or combination of groups other than the Government, is that right? This is a case where almost of necessity the Government has to take the initiative.

Dr. SEITZ. I think this is the best way and I think it is also important that it be initiated by a large technologically oriented nation such as ours.

Mr. MOSHER. However, the assistance we will get from scientists around the world will be significant.

Dr. SEITZ. Very significant. There is much enthusiasm for the program.

Mr. MOSHER. The quality of that work will be significant, too.
Dr. SEITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. MOSHER. You are saying that the National Academy of Sciences is not prepared to do this, or any other non-Government agency that you know of? The Government will not be stepping on someone else's toes?

Dr. SEITZ. I think not. The Academy prefers to retain an advisory role when it can. We do occasionally enter into operations, but I think this project would be ideally handled by the National Bureau of Standards.

Mr. MOSHER. The American Association for the Advancement of Science would not be able to take it on?

Dr. SEITZ. I do not believe so. If there were no other way of doing it, the National Academy of Sciences-National Research Council could. On the other hand, I think it is better to have the National Bureau of Standards undertake this.

Mr. MOSHER. You say if the Government doesn't do it, you could? Is that right? That is an interesting statement.

Dr. SEITZ. I will put it this way: We played a key role with regard to the original compilation and if no Government agency were prepared to do it, I think we would give serious consideration to undertaking it.

On the other hand, I think that since the National Bureau of Standards has the interest, and the competence, it is best if it is done as proposed in this bill.

Mr. MOSHER. And you think that view you have just expressed would be almost universal throughout the scientific community?

Dr. SEITZ. I think so.

Mr. MOSHER. You don't think that view would be challenged?

Dr. SEITZ. I don't think it would be seriously challenged by those who have given responsible thought to it.

Mr. MOSHER. I have nothing further.

Mr. DADDARIO. Mr. Vivian.

Mr. VIVIAN. With reference to the cost of preparing this compilation, I am sure that very few useful compilations can be perpared except for minor abstrating for less than several thousands of dollars, as an absolute minimum, and it would be more likely 10 times that

amount.

Dr. SEITZ. Yes.

Mr. VIVIAN. If you had to charge a cost per volume, how would you anticipate spreading this cost? Are you thinking in terms of, say, charging $1,000 to the first 10 users, or $10 to the first 1,000 users? How would you conceive of the cost being recouped? How would you do it if the scientists had to go ahead with it?

Dr. SEITZ. Working out the details is not a trivial thing and I don't want to speak irresponsibly. I think some reasonable charge can be made per volume. I don't see very easily how you could shift the price as you go along.

Mr. VIVIAN. Testimony yesterday by Dr. Hollomon discussed this same area. He raised the question of perhaps some particular firm being interested in a compilation on some particular material or some class of materials. The question is: How much do you charge for the second volume? The orders come in a month apart. The volume already exists and is on the shelves and has been paid for at some fairly high price. I would assume it would cost at least thousands of dollars. The second firm comes along and asks for a copy. What price do you place on the second copy?

Dr. SEITZ. If the first organization wanted special service, then perhaps one would have a separate fee for that special service. Once the compilation was available, presumably one would put a standard price on it.

Mr. VIVIAN. What kind of a price?

Dr. SEITZ. I would think that would have to be worked out from to case.

Mr. VIVIAN. For example, there could be a reproduction price, or a publication price with some significant amount of overhead added.

Dr. SEITZ. As I recall, the Bureau of Standards at present does charge a fee for its standards. If a company writes in and wants certain standards, it charges a fee. I don't know whether they attempt to recoup all of the expenses of preparing the standard, but they try to recoup some and this gives them a fund whereby they can then be in a better position to render service to other organizations which ask.

I would think some rational scheme-and I am not prepared to invent it in detail here could be set up to allow the rendering of a service and yet not expect to receive compensation for every cent it spends in rendering the service.

In the last analysis, one expects the Bureau of Standards to render public service.

Mr. VIVIAN. At the present time the Bureau of Standards desires to be excluded from the provisions which require publication in the Government Printing Office, which charges something like 150 percent of the cost of printing documents. Do you see any reason to dispute their desire of not being required to use the Government Printing Office?

Dr. SEITZ. I wouldn't like to see the charges get too large. I would have to see what the charges were in individual cases to see whether they are reasonable or not.

Mr. VIVIAN. Would you consider charges of $1,000 a compilation a reasonable charge?

Dr. SEITZ. Under certain circumstances, that would be completely reasonable. If there is a special need.

Mr. VIVIAN. Would it be fair to continue a charge of $1,000 per compilation over many users?

Dr. SEITZ. You mean charging each one a thousand dollars?

Mr. VIVIAN. Yes.

Dr. SEITZ. I think you would have to consider it in terms of the work that went into the given compilation and what its uses were. If there was some highly specialized industrial use, then that might be completely reasonable. If it was a set of properties of the elements for educational purposes, I think it might be unreasonable.

Mr. VIVIAN. The reason I pick that number is that I think it is less than the true cost of any reasonable compilation. It is a high cost compared to reproduction costs of a volume. I can imagine after a hundred copies are published, it would be impossible to charge the original cost and it would seem rather difficult to charge more than reproduction cost, unless there was some banking scheme by which funds were returned to the original requester. This is not an easy question to handle.

Dr. SEITZ. And in fixing the price, one always tries to guess what the ultimate market will be and how many users there are.

Mr. VIVIAN. I asked this question of Dr. Hollomon yesterday and he indicated they did not desire to do a market study before each effort.

Dr. SEITZ. I think someone's intuition will have to enter into the pricing.

Mr. DADDARIO. There must be some such thought developed to put the information together in the first instance. Otherwise, it would not fall within that critical area of a goal to be achieved, would it?

Dr. SEITZ. Yes. Although there are many compilations of data which are necessary, not because there is an enormous volume of use, but because they are an essential link.

Mr. DADDARIO. Even in those instances, you would determine who would need it and what the value of it would be.

Dr. SEITZ. That is right.

Mr. DADDARIO. You would come to some judgment of this question which Mr. Vivian raises as to the potential cost return.

Dr. SEITZ. Yes. Occasionally there might be surprises, as there are in any such effort.

Mr. DADDARIO. If there are surprises, then some workable arrangement would have to be worked out to meet this problem of how not to overcharge the first users and what to charge those who came in after the costs had been set. I think Mr. Vivian raises a good point. I would expect anyone who published a compilation, in or out of Government, would have to come to some similar determination.

Dr. SEITZ. Commercial publishers are doing it all the time.

Mr. VIVIAN. May I inquire of Dr. Seitz what firms are now active in the commercial market which can provide this type of service? Suppose an industrial client wished to obtain such service. Does he have to go to the National Bureau of Standards?

Dr. SEITZ. I think on the very broad front there is no commercial organization that would cover the scope of this. There are commercial firms which would give advice in many, many areas, connected, perhaps, with radioactive materials on the one hand, or special metals for various purposes.

There are also organizations, such as the American Society for Testing Materials, which will provide information to industry.

Mr. VIVIAN. Does ASTM make a charge for such information? Dr. SEITZ. I don't know. They certainly publish many things which they sell, as any society does. Whether one pays an extra fee for special advice, I don't know.

Mr. VIVIAN. Mr. Chairman, I would appreciate it if we could have the committee staff look into the question of how these charges are set. Mr. DADDARIO. That will be done, Mr. Vivian. Have you further questions?

Mr. VIVIAN. No further questions.

Mr. DADDARIO. Dr. Seitz, thank you very much. We appreciate your coming.

Our next witnesses are Mr. Curtis G. Benjamin, chairman of the board. McGraw-Hill Book Co., Inc., and Mr. W. Bradford Wiley, president, John Wiley & Sons, Publishers.

Gentlemen, I understand you will be appearing together, although Mr. Benjamin will make the formal statement.

STATEMENT OF CURTIS G. BENJAMIN, CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD, MCGRAW-HILL BOOK CO., INC., AND W. BRADFORD WILEY, PRESIDENT, JOHN WILEY & SONS, PUBLISHERS

Mr. BENJAMIN. Mr. Chairman, we are delighted to appear before this committee. I might say members of the technical publishing industry have covered the diligent work of your subcommittee with a great deal of admiration and we are delighted to be here today.