Wednesday, the 21st, and efforts to have the original date adhered to were unsuccessful, it is impossible to make the broad and complete presentation of the facts of the situation as seen and explained by the average reserve officer, an average American civilian earning his own living, who sees fit to voluntarily give part of his time to his Government.

(The table above referred to is as follows:)

Cost of the Officers' Reserve Corps and number trained

Senator COPELAND. Has that statement been presented to the War Department?

Colonel ROBINSON. Yes, sir.

Senator COPELAND. Well, I suppose that somebody will tell us what the attitude of the War Department was.

Senator REED. The attitude of the War Department was explained yesterday as being in favor of keeping the R. O. T. C. at its present, this year's level.

Senator BINGHAM. I think that the colonel is speaking of the O. R. C. there.

Colonel ROBINSON. I brought that in as a means of helping the O. R. C., which is gradually going downhill.

Senator REED. How about the Officers Reserve Corps? I asked about that too, and was told that the appropriation provided for actual training of 14 days for the same number of officers as provided for in the current year's bill.

Colonel RORINSON. Yes, sir; just what I stated, sir. We are not asking for any more. The amount of money that they have available for all uses, and the amount asked in H. R. 15,593, is sufficient

to train 26,000 officers.

Senator REED. And that is the number trained this year?

Colonel ROBINSON. And they will be able to give a greater percentage of training to second lieutenants. You can train many more junior officers for the same amount of money than you can senior

officers.

Senator COPELAND. But, your statement brought out, as I understand you, that there are facilities in the colleges for the R. O. T. C., for a larger number of trainees than we have appropriated for. As I understand it, you make a plea for $230,000 additional?

Colonel ROBINSON. Yes, sir.

Senator COPELAND. Additional funds, in order that with the present facilities in the colleges we may train this larger number of students?

Senator REED. That is R. O. T. C.

Colonel ROBINSON. That is only asked, sir, so that we may keep the Reserve Officers' Corps up to its present level, our only source of obtaining new recruits, and the Reserve Officers' Corps is slipping downhill. The World War officers are passing out of the picture. They must be replaced by R. O. T. C. graduates and we must have a few more trained in order to keep up the present level. Senator MCMASTER. That does not mean preliminary training in the colleges and universities, but the R. O. T. C.?

Colonel ROBINSON. Sir, I am not in position to explain that. Senator MCMASTER. For example, in my own State, in the two State institutions, that training is compulsory of every student. Senator STEIWER. Senator McMaster, you are referring to landgrant colleges?

Senator MCMASTER. Yes, sir.

Senator STEIWER. Military training in land-grand colleges is on a different basis.

Senator MCMASTER. In one case it is a land-grant college. I do Lot think the other is.

Senator STEIWER. Military training in land-grant colleges is on one basis, and the R. O. T. C. training is on another basis, and is in other institutions.

Senator BINGHAM. And is voluntary only?

Senator REED. Wholly voluntary.

Senator BINGHAM. In all the eastern colleges with which I am familiar they are having a hard time persuading enough boys to go into it.

Senator MCMASTER. In some of them military training is voluntary.

Senator BINGHAM. Some of them, but in many State universities, which are land-grant colleges, every student is obliged to take military training.

Senator REED. So far as the Officers' Reserve Corps is concerned. Colonel ROBINSON. Yes, sir.

Senator REED. So far as the Officers' Reserve Corps itself is conce:ned the only place in which there has been a cut down in this bill is in the number of flying hours allowed reserve aviators, and the committee will bear that in mind. I do not know what action. it will take.

Colonel ROBINSON. We think it is perfectly satisfactory, that bill as presented (H. R. 15593), and the amount asked for there is correct and proper, with the money we have found in the carryover that we have available. We feel that that is satisfactory. Senator REED. Thank you very much.

Colonel ROBINSON. I am simply asking that, to help assist the reserve officers, Officers' Reserve Corps.

Senator COPELAND. Mr. Chairman, because of the question that has been raised in my mind as a result of what the Colonel has said about the R. O. T. C., I would be glad if some time we could be informed about that.

Senator REED. We are informed. The money is here to train the same number of students in the R. O. T. C. next year as this year, but the House felt, judging from the bill as it has been submitted to

us, under present conditions it is unwise to increase the R. O. T. C. at this time, but there will be no diminution.

Senator McKELLAR. What is the total number trained in the R. O. T. C.?

Senator REED. What is it, General Fries, do you know?
General FRIES. I do not have those figures myself.

Senator BINGHAM. It is given on page 925 of the House hearing. That shows for 1930-31, advanced, 13,561; basic, 74,543; junior, 42.929.

Senator COPELAND. Where is that?

Senator BINGHAM. On page 925, Exhibit B.

Senator COPELAND. What are the figures, again?

Senator BINGHAM. Initial, for the fiscal year 1930-31, advanced, 13.561; basic, 74,543, and junior, 42,929, which is about what they have had for the last seven years. It has been a little more in some years and a little less in others. The basic number is 74,543, which is more than they have had in 10 years; and the junior number is 42,929, which is about what they have had for the last seven or eight years; a litle bit more in some and a little less in other years. Senator COPELAND. Let me ask a question. Is it true that in the land-grant colleges training is compulsory?

Senator STEIWER. It is in my State; every able-bodied student is obliged to take training.

Senator MCMASTER. That is true in my State.

Senator HARRIS. That is my information.

Senator MCKELLAR. I think that there have been some instances in which that is not true. In the University of Alabama, when I went there we were obliged to take training. That is a land-grant college. I think there has been some slacking up now, and that is not required now.

Senator BINGHAM. There is no obligation to take the R. O. T. C. work, but they are obliged to drill so many hours a week.

Senator COPELAND. I know that my boy has been in the R. O. T. C. for four years.

Senator BINGHAM. I think in all of the private institutions it is voluntary, except such institutions as V. M. I.

Senator REED. If there is nothing else, then, from this gentleman, we will hear General Fries.

STATEMENT OF MAJ. GEN. AMOS A. FRIES, UNITED STATES ARMY, RETIRED, PRESIDENT, R. O. T. C. ASSOCIATION

General FRIES. Colonel Johnson who, as secretary, gives his full time to this and has all of the details. I am president, which puts me rather in the situation of sitting on the fence and yelling amen, as he does the work, so that I have not the details of this at my finger tips.

I have always been interested in the Reserve Officers' Association, and in my study of it I have found what Colonel Robinson just brought out, that unless we build up the R. O. T. C. Association, the time is appraching rapidly, and, in fact, is here now, when the Reserve Corps would be falling behind because the men of the World War are going out of the Reserve Corps and the number that is coming in from the R. O. T. C. is not sufficient to keep it up.

Colonel Johnson went to New York and then out to New Jersey, where he was to speak last night, and he intended to come back on an early morning train, and be here this morning, but he understood that the hearing was for to-morrow, and he told me he would have a statement drawn and we would go over that to-day. For some reason, he did not leave last night. He did not leave until about 11 o'clock this morning, so he will not be here until this evening.

I want to particularly bring up one thing with regard to retired officers on duty at these schools which you have discussed previously and make the plea that if possible not only no less a number be provided for, but that it be increased.

Of course, I am not affected one way or the other. I am not on active duty and will not be called back on active duty.

But, I have talked with a number, most of the principals and some of the presidents of the schools and colleges that have retired officers on duty, and in many ways they prefer them to the regular officers. They prefer to get a retired officer to the man who is on active duty. Take a man like Colonel down at Alexandria, a

man who was in West Point with me, had some 32 years experience as a commissioned officer, who is fully qualified, though retired for some physical disability, but perfectly capable of doing that work, the Government is getting him for about one-third of his full pay or about one-half more than what he would get as retired pay. I know that the retired officer is supposed to get three-fourths. He gets three-fourths of his base pay, which does not take into account allowances. It figures out about two-thirds, sometimes a little higher, for officers on the retired list.

But, they can fit those into the institutions, and the presidents of the colleges and principals prefer them. One reason is that they are not subject to being moved after the end of three or four years. They remain there, they learn their men and the methods in the school, having become identified with it and the principals, as I say, prefer them to the men on active duty, for that reason, and that reason only. From the Government's point of view it is a measure of great economy. I have talked with the higher officers, the Chief of Staff and the others, and I understand, just as you have been told, that there will be no substantial difference. I understand that the Chief of Staff proposes to keep this work up regardless of where he has to take the officers from, because he feels that this is fundamental.

And, I want to say this for the R. O. T. C. and military training in these high schools and colleges-that it is basic training in citizenship as well as military. Those boys go out better citizens. In all of my observations I have never known of a single racketeer, a Leopold or a Loeb, who has graduated from one of these high schools or who is a graduate of our R. O. T. C.

I think that anything that can be done to extend this is of great benefit to the Nation as a whole.

Senator COPELAND. Would not Al Capone be a better example, General?

General FRIES. Well, I think that he was raised in a foreign country. We have got some that were raised right here that need some of that basic training.

35211-31-7

These others I refer to are boys who have been raised in this country.

Senator REED. General, what you want is to see the retired officers' item increased to $160,000?

General FRIES. Yes, sir. In fact, I personally would like to see it go back to what it was some three or four years ago before I became connected with the retired officers, from the point of view of economy for the Government and efficiency of the work, and I feel that we need these men in these high schools and in the 55 (c) schools and that it will be of benefit to the Government from every point of view to train these boys.

Senator REED. We are very much obliged to you, General.
General FRIES. Thank you.

Senator MCKELLER. Before you go let me say to the committee that this R. O. T. C. item for 1920-21 was $98,849, and it has just gone up each year until for 1930-31 it amounts to $131,033.

REMOUNT SERVICE

STATEMENT OF HON. BEN WILLIAMSON, UNITED STATES SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF KENTUCKY

Senator REED. We will hear you, Senator Williamson.

Senator WILLIAMSON. Mr. Chairman, I wan't to call the attention of the committee to an item on page 22 of the bill, where the appropriation for the Remount Service has been reduced from about $135,000, what it was last year, to $120,000.

Senator REED. It was $132,500.
Senator WILLIAMSON. Yes, sir.
Senator REED. Now it is $120,000.
Senator WILLIAMSON. Yes, sir.

First, as a basic proposition-I do not know whether the members of the committee understand it-but in Kentucky, as I assume elsewhere, there are those interested in the State government, and those interested especially in the production of blooded stock, who are doing all they can to raise the standard from scrub stock to blood stock, not only horses, but cattle and hogs, and other animals produced on the farm.

I do not know, I am not informed, as to when this appropriation first started in behalf of this Remount Service, but I do believe that it is a mistake to be made to recede to a point in this appropriation below what would really be helpful and encourage the splendid effort that our folks are making in this bringing up of the grade of all sorts of stock, and a great many dollars are being expended each year in that behalf, going out into the counties where they are not so much interested in blooded stock. They do not realize its value.

For many years that effort has been made amongst us in order to produce that.

Now, without special reference to conditions as they exist now, but when normal prosperity returns-and, I see that some people are advertising their stallions for sale and their blooded animals for sale. Just how far that has gone I have not been able to find