Dr. COOLIDGE. So far as I know; yes, sir.

Mr. DIENNER. That is identified in popular language as the House of Magic; is it not?

Dr. COOLIDGE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. This is the successor of Mr. Steinmetz?

Dr. COOLIDGE. You might regard it as such. But it might be interesting for me to say a few words as to how this laboratory happened to be formed.

The CHAIRMAN. I am sure we would be very much interested, Mr. Coolidge.

Dr. COOLIDGE. It was 38 years ago. Mr. E. W. Rice was then in charge of the engineering work of the company, and among his associates he had Professor Elihu Thomson, Dr. Steinmetz, and Mr. A. G. Davis, who was then head of the patent department, and these gentlemen saw clearly that all of the engineering work of the company was based on the facts and principles established by fundamental research. Much of that research work had been done by university professors, and they felt that it might be a very good scheme for us to contribute to that kind of fundamental research, and of course with the utilitarian purpose of establishing new facts and principles on which new jobs for our factories could be created, new devices which would give work to our various factories.

It might be interesting, too, if I go a step further and give you a little picture of what that industrial research laboratory is like. It started with one man-a very small laboratory. Dr. Whitney was then Professor of Chemistry at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and it gradually grew. Today there are about 300 people in that laboratory; about 100 of these are research workers and the others are mechanics, glass blowers, and assistants, and clerical help. The research workers are men who for the most part would otherwise be connected with universities if they weren't with us.

The CHAIRMAN. Would it be inappropriate if we would call that the brain trust of the General Electric Co.?

Dr. COOLIDGE. I think a little, because some of our people would feel that there were brains outside of the laboratory. [Laughter.]

Mr. FRANK. To follow in that vein, Doctor, it is possible that some of those men are persons who have never met a pay roll.

Senator KING. Is the inference that a brain truster never did meet a pay roll?

Mr. FRANK. It has been suggested that they have a monopoly of such incapacity.

Senator KING. Well, they have a partial one.

Mr. DIENNER. Dr. Coolidge, you have been so modest that you have not given us a statement of your qualifications and accomplishments, and I would like to have you do so.

Dr. COOLIDGE. Well, I started out to try to be an electrical engineer, and then after graduating from the Institute of Technology I went abroad for study in physics and chemistry, and then came back to this country and remained at the Institute of Technology for 5 years doing research work, and then in 1905 I joined the staff of the research laboratory in Schenectady.

If I may go on and tell you a little more about what that laboratory is like, I have a feeling that while there is no difficulty in finding men who know enough to do research work, it is not so easy to find those

who can make use, good use, of their knowledge, so that I think of our group as a hand-picked group of men who are able to use their scientific knowledge and as men who are capable of cooperating well with one another and with the other men in the General Electric organization. I should have said that Dr. Whitney in starting the laboratory started out with the idea that cooperation was tremendously important, that given two scientists of equal ability, if they would cooperate nicely with one another, their output should be much more than twice that of either of them working alone, that each should contribute a good deal to the work of the other, and I have seen that work out very well. In the 33 years that I have been in that laboratory I have often seen it happen that one man working in a seemingly very remote field from the other makes an important contribution to the work of the other.

The facilities of such a laboratory are, of course, very helpful to the worker in it. I should name, first, the library as the most important aid to his work, and then he has material facilities in his workroom; he has probably hydrogen gas at low pressure, hydrogen gas at high pressure, oxygen gas, compressed air, water, and vacuum, all piped to his room, and then electrical services-a great variety of electrical services.

I might go on a step further and speak of the different kinds of work going on in that laboratory. Remember that the laboratory was established for fundamental research, that is to establish new facts and principles, but it naturally develops that inventions will be made by members of the staff.

The CHAIRMAN. By fundamental research, Dr. Coolidge, I assume you mean unrestricted research unrelated to the particular objectives that the company itself might have in mind at that particular time.

Dr. COOLIDGE. Absolutely unrestricted. We have ordinarily stuck to things in the electrical field, but now that we regard all matter as electrical you see that that gives us a very wide field for our work.

As a rule, the man is working quite on his own, just as much so as he would if he were connected with a university. It is impossible in a large laboratory for any director to direct in any detail the work of the men in the laboratory.

Representative Sumners. Doctor, let me ask you, in this laboratory are you seeking to discover natural law and how human beings can work in accord with it?

Dr. COOLIDGE. New facts and new principles in the physical world. Representative SUMNERS. You say new facts and new principles; you mean they are newly discovered; they have always existed, haven't they?

Dr. COOLIDGE. They may have always existed. If it were cosmic radiation you would say it has always existed, but we have known nothing about it. On the other hand, it might be something which has not always existed, which has been brought into existence. For example, take ductile tungsten, the material from which those lamp filaments are made, the source of light in all of the present-day incandescent lamps. There was never such a thing as ductile tungsten in existence until it was brought into existence in the laboratory. The tungsten which had been made up to that time, metallic tungsten, had been as brittle as glass, but it was possible by work in the laboratory to make it as strong as steel.

Representative SUMNERS. Has that depended upon some natural principle that you had worked in harmony with? You didn't create it, did you?

Dr. COOLIDGE. You may say that it depended upon metallurgical work, but it was a new metallurgical art which was developed.

Senator KING. May I interrupt you there? Take, for instance, the shattering of atoms; perhaps it was never known and it would have been impossible until the concentration of electric energy and such tremendous power, to shatter an atom.

Dr. COOLIDGE. Except that that shattering has been going on all the time on a very large scale due to cosmic radiation, but we haven't known that until recently.

Representative SUMNERS. But without going any further, you didn't invent the power by which it would shatter, did you? You didn't create the power; it was always here. I think I will withdraw the question.

Dr. COOLIDGE. We might invent a machine for producing very high voltage, very high energy particles for doing such atom smashing.

Representative SUMNERS. The practical question to me-I think it is practical-is we don't seem to recognize in our job of trying to operate the machinery of a complex government that there are any natural laws, any principles, anything that we have got to know about and work in accord with; we just go thundering along. You people in your laboratories are trying to discover natural law and how you can work with it.

The CHAIRMAN. It might be proper to remark here that the courts have recognized a distinction between a principle, which Congressman Sumners is now discussiong, and a device which makes use of that principle. The principle is not patentable; the device is patentable, and of course it may be that there is a principle in politics. I will discuss that with Congressman Sumners a little later.

Representative SUMNERS. If there is, we are pretty ignorant of it around here.

Dr. COOLIDGE. I appreciate your help, Mr. Chairman.

I might say that all of this work is published, that is, there is no secrecy in that laboratory. Insofar as possible we try to have every member of the staff know what every other member is doing, and, as I say, all of the results of that research work, which are of any interest, are published, and published very promptly, published just as soon as the patent application can be filed.

The CHAIRMAN. But not published before application is filed. Dr. COOLIDGE. That is right; provided there is something patentable there. Of course in many cases it is fundamental work, discovery of new facts and principles on which

The CHAIRMAN (interposing). On which a patent couldn't be obtained.

Dr. COOLIDGE. On which a patent couldn't be obtained. The fact that there is no secrecy is very helpful because it makes it possible for us to discuss our work not only freely among ourselves but also with other research workers in the universities and also in other industrial laboratores, even those of our competitors; that is, we welcome all visitors to our laboratory and always feel perfectly free to discuss anything which either isn't patentable or on which patent protection has been obtained. I have said as much as I have about the value of

cooperation because I know how much more efficient it is to work that way than on the basis of secrecy.

The CHAIRMAN. But this is cooperation within a certain group, as you have just defined it.

Dr. COOLIDGE. It is rather more than that because we do feel that we can cooperate with other groups, with scientists working in other laboratories.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; you cooperate with these other scientists, these other groups so far as principles are concerned, and new facts are concerned

Dr. COOLIDGE (interposing). Yes; and often as to methods.

The CHAIRMAN. But you would not cooperate with them with respect to any patentable device until after your application was filed. That is a purely practical situation.

Dr. COOLIDGE. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. I was very much interested, Dr. Coolidge, in your description of this laboratory. We all know, of course, that laboratories of this kind are productive of great benefits, public benefits as well as private benefits to your particular corporation. You refer to the advantage which the scientist who is employed by your laboratory derives from the presence, ready to his hand, easily accessible, of hydrogen gas under pressure and hydrogen gas without pressure, the accessibility of current in various forms, and the availability of all of the physical devices which are used in a laboratory. That suggests to my mind an inquiry-if it may be a proper one, and I don't want to ask you to divulge private information-the inquiry as to what your annual budget may be for the maintenance of this laboratory.

Dr. COOLIDGE. In this one laboratory, so-called research laboratory, it will be a little over $1,000,000 a year, but that will be only a small fraction of the amount of money spent by the company for research. I have no idea what the total amount is, but you see there are some 15 other laboratories. They for the most part are what we call works laboratories, and their function is mainly for testing materials and the control of factory processes.

The CHAIRMAN. Those 15 other laboratories are the laboratories which are operated for the development of devices which are presently usable by the company, I take it.

Dr. COOLIDGE. It is intended that way.

The CHAIRMAN. Yours is the general laboratory which undertake the fundamental research.

Dr. COOLIDGE. Yes; but some fundamental research work will be carried on in these other laboratories. It will depend upon the personnel.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you care to venture any opinion as to the annual cost to the General Electric Co. for maintaining these 15 other laboratories?

Dr. COOLIDGE. I wouldn't dare to. I don't know the answer, and it would be very difficult, I think, even for our controller to tell you how much the company spends annually for research, because in some cases you would need to get together on definitions as to what should be included.

The CHAIRMAN. But in your laboratory the expense is not less than $1,000,000 a year.

Dr. COOLIDGE. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. And of course that is made possible only because the General Electric Co. is a large company, with a large number of stockholders and a very large capital reservoir upon which to draw. Mr. DIENNER. Also you should include the patent system available, in that connection.

The CHAIRMAN. We will come to that, Mr. Dienner. going to forget patents in this inquiry any time.

We are not

You were about to answer the question, Dr. Coolidge. I said all of this is possible only because the General Electric Co. has a large number of stockholders and therefore a large capital reservoir upon which to draw to maintain this enterprise.

VALUE OF SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH

Dr. COOLIDGE. That is undoubtedly helpful. I wouldn't want to leave you, however, with the impression that that laboratory is an expense to the General Electric Co.

The CHAIRMAN. Oh, undoubtedly it produces dividends; I am sure of that. I was thinking of the cooperative aspect of the matter to which you have referred.

Dr. COOLIDGE. Yes, sir.

Mr. DIENNER. Might I ask, Dr. Coolidge, whether without such a laboratory your company would continue with development of new ideas, new principles, inventions, and, if so, at what rate?

Dr. COOLIDGE. The engineering development work would certainly go on and the application of known principles, facts, would certainly go on. I think, however, that both of those would go on at a somewhat reduced rate, because without patent protection the manufacturer would spend money on the development of a device and would put it on the market and it would then be copied by others, and the second manufacturer making the "Chinese" copies would have no development expense and so could undersell the first manufacturer who was responsible for the device in the first place.

So far as fundamental research is concerned, I presume we would also do a certain amount of fundamental research, but it seems to me that it would have to be much less than at present, because I don't see how it could be paid for in the absence of any patent protection. Mr. DIENNER. One other point. Would not the necessity of observing secrecy materially interfere with the rate of advance?

Dr. COOLIDGE. It would certainly slow it down. I was so impressed several years ago seeing how far secrecy could be carried, and how badly it worked out. It was in a German laboratory and the research work was all done behind locked doors, not only outside doors but also inside doors, so that although this was all one laboratory, the man working in this room knew nothing about what was going on in the next room, and it went so far, I rember, in one instance, that the two men working in this room needed an electric furnace of a special type. They knew that a man working in the next room had developed such a furnace, but they couldn't learn anything about the design of that furnace, so they had to go ahead and develop their own, although the same company paid for both of these development jobs.

Mr. DIENNER. Dr. Coolidge, would you tell us about some of the public benefits which have accrued from your laboratory in the past, with reference, for example, to the electric lamp?