That is what I mean when I say you are competing with them. To whatever extent you reduce their audience aren't you reducing their commercial potential, the potential profit they might be able to make? I am not arguing their case. I am simply stating the facts to illustrate what I mean.

Mr. ALEINIKOFF. I would agree generally with what you say again. The commercial stations themselves, I think, will also agree, however, that one of the things that educational television can do is to upgrade television, and, indeed, to lead the whole field of television in upgrading the quality of its programs. I think this is a service we can perform for the television industry as well as for education.

Mr. PoFF. Yes.

I am through now, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. TENZER. Mr. Chairman, may I ask another question, please? Mr. KASTEN MEIER. Mr. Tenzer?

Mr. TENZER. Mr. Burrows, you conclude your statement by saying, "We have labored long for the good of many; we should not be discouraged in this pursuit by the needs of the few."

Of course, I subscribe to that philosophy of trying to bring about the greatest amount of good for the greatest number. But if this industry which is in its infancy now, and as has just been suggested is in competition with other media, if it were extended broadly in the foreseeable future would we not be possibly choking off the jugular vein of the producers of the material that you seek to use?

Mr. BURROWS. No, sir; I cannot see that we would-you are speaking of authors and composers?

Mr. TENZER. Authors, composers, creators of literary works whose works you seek to use. If all of their sources of income from copyrighted material were cut off by the granting of the many requests for various exemptions, as my colleague from Virginia has said, we would have a serious problem of trying to find a way to create a proper balance, for the national interest of which you spoke.

Mr. BURROWS. I cannot project that many years in advance but on the basis of what we know now I would say, as I tried to indicate here, that providing greater audiences for authors and composers sells books, sells records, acquaints the public with the work of these men and women, and is to their advantage. This should continue and grow as the facilities to do this continue and grow.

I think without proof but on the basis of personal observation that the educational broadcasters have been serving that advantage more than the commercial broadcasters at this moment.

Mr. TENZER. It would seem to me that we have an absence of proof on both sides. We will have to just search for this information and that is what we are trying to do through the questioning of the various witnesses who appear before us. Thank you.

Mr. KASTENMEIER. Thank you, gentlemen.

Mr. HARLEY. Mr. Chairman, thank you for your kind attention and the privilege of appearing before you.

Mr. KASTEN MEIER. Next we will have the National Association for Educational Television, represented by its president, who will be introduced by our very distinguished colleague and friend from Alabama, Congressman Armistead Selden.

STATEMENT OF HON. ARMISTEAD I. SELDEN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF ALABAMA

Mr. SELDEN. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much.

Members of the subcommittee, I appreciate the opportunity of introducing to you one of my distinguished fellow Alabamians, Mr. Raymond Hurlbert. Mr. Hurlbert has a broad career both in the educational field and in the television field. He was for a long time an outstanding educator in the public schools of Alabama, having served as president of the Alabama Educational Association. Also he has been very active in civic affairs, having been district governor of Rotary International.

8.

At the present time Mr. Hurlbert is the general manager of the Alabama Educational Television Commission. He is a former member of the board of directors of the National Association of Educational Broadcasters and, at the present time, he is the president of the National Association for Educational Television and appears here in that capacity. He is accompanied by Dr. John Schwarzwalder, who is executive secretary of the National Association for Educational Television. Thank you for giving me the privilege of introducing to you, Mr. Hurlbert.

Mr. KASTEN MEIER. Thank you for the introduction, Congressman, and welcome to the committee, Mr. Hurlbert and Dr. Schwarzwalder. Please proceed.

STATEMENTS OF RAYMOND D. HURLBERT, PRESIDENT, AND JOHN SCHWARZWALDER, EXECUTIVE SECRETARY, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR EDUCATIONAL TELEVISION

Mr. HURLBERT. Mr. Chairman, it is a privilege to be here and to present a common front and solid philosophical thinking from the educational broadcasting field.

When first learning of this copyright revision bill I was so disturbed that it made me feel very much like a lady we had in our city of Birmingham who went before the TB clinic where they asked her if she had been X-rayed. She said, no, but she had been ultraviolated.

We felt that our present procedures regarding copyrights which we have been practicing have been so well established as to serve as a safeguard to our very restrictive financial operations.

I have been further impressed with the restrictive nature of this bill somewhat similar to a situation in our Alabama oilfields. We have growing oilfields in Alabama and hundreds of new oil wells are now producing. Oil was struck on the property of a little country church recently. The next Sunday morning the minister got up and said, "We are not taking in any more new members."

The restriction on what we are talking about is so disturbing I want to commend to you for serious consideration the tragic results possible from such legislation.

I have just passed the statement to you. I would like to present it for the record please, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. KASTENMEIER. The statement will be received and may be read into the record without objection. The Chair notes that accompany

ing it is a cartoon from the Nashville Tennessean on which the word "copyrighted" is superimposed. I assume you have permission or license to reproduce it?

Mr. HURLBERT. Being a good Democrat, I am sure that the Democrat, the publication in which it appeared, would permit this without any question.

Mr. KASTENMEIER. It is known as constructive license.

Mr. HURLBERT. May I proceed with the statement?

Mr. PoFF. May I suggest to the gentleman that what he says might be a non sequitur. We had a newspaper in the district I am privileged to represent named "The Democrat" which editorially endorsed the Republican Congressman.

Mr. HURLBERT. It just shows how much alike we Democrats and Republicans are all becoming.

My name is Raymond D. Hurlbert, and I am president of the National Association for Educational Television. The National Association for Educational Television has in its membership 4 State commissions representing 15 educational television stations, 1 regional network which contains 11 educational television stations and 6 other memberships concerned with educational television. It is a nonprofit organization whose purpose is to promote and encourage the use of television for education in every possible way. We believe that this encouragement and promotion of the use of television for education is a necessity, in the most literal sense of that word. With the great increase in the number of students to be educated; with the explosion in knowledge in our time, that is, in the amount and number of things that we must know simply to survive; and with the difficulty of training enough competent teachers to do the job that needs to be done, our only hope, it seems to me, to provide a sufficient amount of education for our people, is to use the electronic media and more notably educational television.

Although I speak to you for the National Association for Educational Television, I shall illustrate my remarks from the experience of the Alabama Educational Television Commission of which I am general manager. The Alabama Educational Television Commission now operates five educational television stations in that State and is constructing two more-three more. Since I wrote this, we have another one in the mill. These stations are interconnected one with another and programs produced by great educational agencies such as the University of Alabama, Auburn University, the Birmingham public schools and others are now visible to children and teachers in thousands of schools all over the State. In this way, our very best teachers can present excellently prepared lessons for the benefit of thousands of children, many of whom could not possibly receive such excellent instruction in any other fashion.

This is Alabama's 10th year to be doing this sort of job, and we know from tens of thousands of letters and comments that it works and that it works very well indeed. Perhaps you gentlemen would be interested to know that Alabama's ETV appropriations have been made by every Alabama Legislature since 1953. We have come from no operational appropriations in the beginning to our present total annual appropriations and budget of nearly $1 million, and in Alabama that is a lot of money. I am aware that similar figures can be

given for many other States and that similar testimony as to the value of educational television has been heard by the Congress in connection with many other matters affecting educational television, including the Educational Television Facilities Act of 1962, and, therefore, I shall not go further into the entire matter of importance of educational television or of the excellence of the educational job it is now performing.

We are appearing here in opposition to H.R. 4347 which is called, I understand, the copyright revision bill. We are concerned with certain provisions of this bill for a number of reasons, the chief of which is that if it were passed it would hamper enormously our task of bringing educational television to Alabama, and it is possible that it might negate our efforts completely. Let me cite for you just a few of the parts of the bill which would be extremely harmful, in my opinion, if the present bill were enacted.

First, we use many video tape recordings which are prepared elsewhere, and many of the video tape recordings which we make are, in turn, used elsewhere. The proposed bill, I understand, would make this impossible, or, at best, extremely difficult. To say that this would hamper our educational job would be putting the matter very mildly.

Secondly, I understand that the proposed bill would prevent the use of a recorded program beyond a 6-month period. Gentlemen, it is extremely difficult to prepare and to produce a superior educational program. When it is produced, at considerable expense and with much labor, it should be used as long as the knowledge it contains is current. Anything less than this would be shortchanging those who should be educated.

Third, we understand there may be a prohibition against the "fair use" of a film or filmstrips on educational television programs. Here again our efforts to use the best of what has been prepared elsewhere would be hampered or destroyed. The losers from this would be the people of Alabama or of any other State served by educational television programs.

Finally and perhaps most important, it is our understanding that the use of copyrighted materials which is permitted under the present "fair use" principles of the existing copyright law may be prohibited in programs not beamed specifically at classrooms. This, in my opinion, would be a tremendous blow to hundreds of thousands and even millions of Americans who depend upon educational television for an increase in their knowledge of the world they live in. To cite only one example, this proposed provision of the new law would effectively prevent educational television stations such as those in Alabama from providing any information to our farm population which was copyrighted and which was not beamed to a classroom. As you know, most of our farmers are beyond classroom age, but this does not mean that they do not wish and do not need instruction in how to manage their farms, their homes, and their incomes more effectively. I do not believe that those who have promoted the bill which is presently before you have thought of these people or of their counterparts in industry who wish to improve their skills and their knowledge and who are doing so by means of educational television.

It appears as if we have a strange paradox in the form of this revision bill. The restraint, obstacles, discouragements, and, in many

cases, actual defeat for the development of educational television in America as proposed in this legislation is in direct contrast to the aid, encouragement, financial assistance, and many supplementary contributions from other Federal departments and divisions. The HEW Department is using millions to expand and extend educational television through Federal matching funds. The FCC has reserved scores of channels for educational television with a plan to assist the growth before all such outlets are allocated. The USDA and the U.S. Public Health Service are providing taped and filmed programs to educational television.

The new legislation will impose upon ETV stations an embarrassing, if not impossible, financial and personnel burden. It is estimated that the job of sifting all potential program material for an ETV station will require from one to five permanent high-priced employees. This new requirement for stations struggling to stay alive, many with only five employees already, will constitute a killing burden. Just preparing an ETV program is a sizable job of research, study, and application. Adding this new load will be enough to eliminate everything but the public domain and original material. This could also possibly cause the loss of the already hard pressed and hard-to-get programing personnel. Furthermore, this would make necessary the planning of programing months ahead of present schedules because of the time involved in the search for copyright information.

Alabama's ETV network, the largest interconnected State network, was founded on the premise that the best in education should be made available to all its citizens. Any curb or artificial restrictions interfering with the free flow of this cultural, educational, and civic media will to that degree retard our national growth and development.

Let me conclude this portion of my testimony by reminding you that in your previous hearings much has been said about the sacred rights of the copyright holder. Let me suggest to you that these rights should and must be balanced against the rights of the people of all ages to be educated to the limits of their capabilities. It will avail this country very little if our copyright holders are given a new and preferred treatment under their law (as compared with what they have had) if, in the meantime, we hamper or destroy the educational television movement which has the possibility of being the greatest aid to education since the invention of printing. If we are to have a people deprived of the knowledge which for the sake of their country and its prosperity and even its safety we must have, then it will not much matter how prosperous copyright holders may become, since the country itself may no longer exist.

I urge you, therefore, to consider with care the fact that you must balance any new preferred treatment for the copyright holder against the needs of the people for knowledge and for education which can only be provided through the use of the new electronic media, more notably educational television.

Thank you.

I would like in turn here, gentlemen, if you please, to present the executive director of our National Association for Educational Television, Dr. John C. Schwarzwalder, who is the general manager of our great operation in St. Paul, Minn.

Mr. KASTENMEIER. Do you have a statement, Dr. Schwarzwalder?