Senator SCHOEPPEL. How many men do you have in your department?

Mr. HALL. We have 55 at the present moment-55 inspectors and we have 19 field clerks, and I think 20 in the office. That is, including the engineers, safety engineers.

Senator SCHOEPPEL. I don't think I have any further questions, Mr. Chairman.

Senator SMATHERS. Mr. Hall, what specifically are your duties? Mr. HALL. As Director of Locomotive Inspection?

Senator SMATHERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HALL. To oversee the application of the law and to enforce it. Senator SMATHERS. Would you mind detailing for us just what it is you do specifically? I recognize that the law sets out certain duties, and you would try to do them, obviously, to the best of your ability. Now, what do those duties require you to do?

Mr. HALL. We receive the reports from the various inspectors; we check them for violations of any of our rules or of the Locomotive Inspection Act, and if there are any violations we ordinarily write the carrier and call them to their attention, depending, of course, upon the seriousness of it, and if our inspectors are in error in categorizing those things as defects we instruct them the proper manner to view the situation and to be governed in the future.

Senator SMATHERS. Are you familiar with the Safety Appliances Act?

Mr. HALL. Not altogether; no, sir.

Senator SMATHERS. Are you familiar with the Ash Pan Act?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Senator SMATHERS. What does that act require?

Mr. HALL. Requires ash pans on locomotives and the manner in which they be operated.

Senator SMATHERS. I was just looking here at some sort of a brochure which has to do with this particular job, and, for the record, I would like to read:

The Section of Railroad Safety administers the following laws intended to promote safety in railroad operation, safety appliance acts, hours of service acts, Accident Investigation Act, Signal Inspection Act, explosive and other dangerous articles, Medals of Honor Act, block signal resolution, inspection of mail carsand then those are the acts over which apparently you have control; Mr. HALL. I am not in that section, Senator. Senator SMATHERS. You are not in that section? Mr. HALL. No, that is the Section of Safety. Senator SMATHERS. That is the Section of Safety? Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Senator SMATHERS. Are you in the section that has anything to do with any of these?

Mr. HALL. No, sir; that is a different section. I am in the same bureau.

Senator SMATHERS. You are in the same bureau but you have nothing whatsoever to do with that?

Mr. HALL. No, sir.

Senator SMATHERS. Your particular duties, again, are to inspect the locomotives. Is that it primarily?

Mr. HALL. To review the reports of the inspectors who do inspect the locomotives, Senator.

Senator SMATHERS. That is the only duty of this particular job? Mr. HALL. Well, of course, to instruct the inspectors if there are errors in the reports-if they are reporting things which should not be reported, or if there are things which they do not report which should be reported.

Senator SMATHERS. How many inspectors are there?

Mr. HALL. As of this day there are 55, sir.

Senator SMATHERS. Have you ever been an inspector, yourself? Mr. HALL. Not with the civil service; no, sir; but I have inspected locomotives all my life.

Senator SMATHERS. You have never been an inspector in the group over which you now have control?

Mr. HALL. No, sir.

Senator SMATHERS. You mentioned civil service. Are these inspectors ordinarily civil service jobs?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; they are taken from the civil service register. Senator SMATHERS. This director's job, of course, has never been under civil service, has it?

Mr. HALL. No, sir.

Senator SMATHERS. You say that all your life you have had to do with locomotives. Have you had any specific experience in examining, as an inspector would examine, locomotives for various safety features?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Senator SMATHERS. When did you have that experience?

Mr. HALL. All my life, sir, and particularly since I have been an engineer. It is a requirement on our railroad that the engineer must inspect his locomotive at the completion of each trip or day's work, and render a report on it. He is held responsibile for that duty by the

company.

Senator SMATHERS. What railroad were you with?

Mr. HALL. Southern Pacific, on the Pacific Lines.

Senator SMATHERS. And it was that experience as a locomotive engineer actually as an engineer-that in your opinion qualifies you to fill this job as Director?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir. I might add, Senator, that all of my predecessors, since the Locomotive Inspection Bureau was first formed, have had background of locomotive engineers.

Senator SMATHERS. Have your predecessors been appointed like you were appointed, or have they previously been inspectors?

Mr. HALL. Well, the first, of course, was Mr. Ensign, under whom the Bureau was formed. He had not had any previous experience. The second was Mr. McManamy, who had been appointed Assistant Director, and so far as I know he had no experience as a locomotive inspector. The rest of them were taken from the ranks of the locomotive inspectors.

Senator SMATHERS. Not that it makes any difference-I don't know that there is a requirement on it--but would you say in you judgment it appeared to be the custom to take these directors from the ranks of the inspectors?

Mr. HALL. The custom?
Senator SMATHERS. Yes.

Mr. HALL. I think it has been followed in most instances; yes, si

Senator SMATHERS. Mr. Hall, I think that is all the questions I wish to ask at this time.

Senator, do you have anything further?

Senator SCHOEPPEL. I would just like to ask for the record 2 or 3 other questions. Please understand I am no expert on this at all. I have a brother that came up through the railroad, the line out in Kansas on the Missouri Pacific. We have been seeing the dieselization of locomotives very rapidly in the last few years.

Is there a close relationship, or is it a wide relationship between the dieselization now and the old locomotives? To me it would seem to be quite a big gap in there.

Mr. HALL. In my judgment, sir, it is quite a gap from the old steam to the diesel.

Senator SCHOEPPEL. In your responsibility in this position I rather suspect that on the lines that you served, as well as a lot of the other lines, the bulk of the engines now-the motive power-would be diesel?

Mr. HALL. That is true, sir.

Senator SCHOEPPEL. That is a correct statement, isn't it?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Senator SCHOEPPEL. How would you from your past experience gear yourself to the dieselization program?

Mr. HALL. Well, I have had a great deal of experience operating them, Senator, over a period of years that they have been on our railroad-since about 1942.

Senator SCHOEPPEL. That is the thing I want to bring out in the record here.

Mr. HALL. I have been operating diesels, all classifications of them, from the 600 horsepower switchers to the 6,000 horsepower multipleunit freight locomotives.

Senator SCHOEPPEL. Is it a more complicated job from a safety angle, and from a mechanical angle, on the diesel as against the steam locomotives?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Senator SCHOEPPEL. And you feel, by reason of your experience in actually operating the diesels, that you have a fundamental grasp of, and a background of the safety factors that have to be complied with, that your men would have to make inspections on?

Mr. HALL. Indeed I do, Senator.

Senator SCHOEPPEL. Do you in your department, or has it been the rule and again I don't know whether it has or not that you have briefing schools, or do you keep up with all the modern new methods on these locomotives to see that the men over whom you will have supervision will be up to the minute in knowledge and information and the background of all these?

Mr. HALL. That has not been done prior to this time, Senator, and I have, since I have been in office, arranged to have our inspectors. attend a special diesel school for that very purpose, of more thoroughly familiarizing them with all of the modern details of construction and design of diesel locomotives.

Senator SCHOEPPEL. I have in mind one morning when coming to work, running into a road block. They had a bigger one at Union Station, on the Pennsylvania Railroad. It was due to some trouble

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of some kind. Would that type of work be something that would fall into the category of your department, or was that something that was completely foreign to what you and your inspectors would do? Mr. HALL. Do you mean the occurrence here at Union Station? Senator SCHOEPPEL. Yes.

Mr. HALL. Well, of course, that particular incident didn't involve us, but we did send inspectors there to determine whether or not we were involved. It developed that that came under the section of safety, and their inspectors took care of it.

Senator SCHOEPPEL. That was strictly on the safety factor, in the safety division?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Senator SCHOEPPEL. You were alert to the extent that you sent an inspector down there?

Mr. HALL. I wasn't in the office at that time.

Senator SCHOEPPEL. Was that done in the department?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir. The Assistant Director, and I think one of our inspectors, went immediately to the Union Station to determine whether or not the locomotive was in any way involved because of possible defects.

Senator SCHOEPPEL. I wanted to have brought out, Mr. Chairman, for the record, the transition between the steam and the diesel locomotives, and the man's experience with and knowledge of the diesels. which, of course, now are practically taking over our motive power on the railroads.

That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Senator SMATHERS. Mr. Halı, since you have been serving as the Director of Locomotive Inspection, what has been the record with respect to safety?

Mr. HALL. Safety?

Senator SMATHERS. Yes, sir. What has been the record?

Mr. HALL. It has been very good, sir.

Senator SMATHERS. Do you have any statistics to show?

Mr. HALL. You mean of the past 5 months?

Senator SMATHERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HALL. I don't have them with me; no, sir.

Senator SMATHERS. Are you familiar with the safety record for the year previous to the time that you took over?

Mr. HALL. Yes. I wouldn't say that I am completely familiar with a comparison with other years, but the report was issued, Senator, and I have gone over it, and there was a lesser number of accidents in 1954 than any prior year.

Senator SMATHERS. From your examination of the statistics, so far as accidents are concerned, has it been your observation that there has been a decreasing number of accidents, involving locomotives, over the past 3 or 4 years?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Senator SMATHERS. In the 5 months during which you have been in office have you made any comparison with that 5 months of a year ago, or 2 years ago, so that you might determine whether or not you should take any action, or whether there was a need for any additional action?

Mr. HALL. I haven't analyzed it completely, Senator, but the safety record is exceptionally good.

Senator SMATHERS. You don't recall exactly whether or not it is better than the 5 months of the like period a year ago?

Mr. HALL. Yes, it is better.

Senator SMATHERS. It is better?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Senator SMATHERS. Do you recall how much better?

Mr. HALL. I couldn't say in the percentage, sir, but I would say that it is some slight percentage.

Senator SMATHERS. In your office do you keep a running account as to the number of accidents that are occurring around the Nation, and if there is a greater predominance of accidents possibly in one area than another area? Are you familiar with that?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Senator SMATHERS. Where do you find they are having the most accidents involving locomotives in the country?

Mr. HALL. Our records reflected in the northeastern part of the United States, Senator.

Senator SMATHERS. How does that compare with what the statistics revealed a year ago? That area.

Mr. HALL. In that area it is better. It has been reduced.

Senator SMATHERS. What are the statistics insofar as the southwestern part of the United States is concerned?

Mr. HALL. I couldn't say, Senator.

Senator SMATHERS. Do you have in your office a chart which indicates how many accidents, and where accidents occur?

Mr. HALL. No, sir.

Senator SMATHERS. How do you know, then, when accidents do occur, just by the inspectors, the local inspectors' reports to you?

Mr. HALL. The accident reports are wired in to us by the railroads, and we observe them. I haven't checked them closely as to the exact proportion of accidents, or percentage as compared to previous months or years, but some of our inspectors have tried in some districts, and it is very difficult for us to complete an investigation in a short time.

Senator SMATHERS. What sort of a program do you envision which would bring about greater safety? What sort of programs have you mapped out and planned which would indicate that you are moving forward in this matter of safety?

Mr. HALL. Well, one, Senator, is the one I mentioned to the Senator, arranging for the schooling of our people, to be more thoroughly familiar with all of the late designs and construction of the locomotives, so that they will be more thoroughly qualified to determine the condition of locomotives.

Senator SMATHERS. In the 5 months during which you have been director, have you seen any inadequacy or any failure or have you come up with any specific recommendation, other than the one of having meetings of the inspectors, whereby safety generally can be improved?

Mr. HALL. Well, one program we have is to get the inspectors together, so that we can talk together in a group, rather than to have them scattered in 55 different districts, and we have arranged for that. That is the first time, or it will be the first time that has been done in 40 years, Senator, that these men work, for instance, in Los Angeles and they have no way of knowing what is going on in other parts of