Mason: In the House, there has been some success in limiting the number of subcommittees. Suggested letting the committees decide which subcommittees they need.

Boren: Commented that some may need none and others may need five. Instead of having a maximum per committee, would it be better to say that there should be no more than 25 subcommittees in each chamber? Then all the chairs in a chamber could get together and agree on what the 25 should be?

Mason: Suggested agreeing on a number and working the details out later.

Mann: Thought that Boren's approach made sense and agreed with it. Also stated that a very small number of committees would not be useful. Members must be allowed to have entrepreneurial opportunities.

Stated that the point here was not just politics but substance.

Boren: Do we set a number and say no more? Do we list who will or will not exist?

Ornstein: Cautioned against massive jurisdictional restructuring. Jurisdictions should be merged but not pulled apart. Issues can not be hermetically sealed. So the ad hoc process needs to be utilized. Nevertheless, some committees can be eliminated and some can be consolidated.

When assignments are limited, so are the number of committees and subcommittees. Violations of the rules with waivers and exceptions must not be allowed.

Reid: Stated that "Should we do this?" is a rhetorical question. This must be done by us because there is no one else to do it. The tough decisions must be made.

Boren: Outlined idea for dealing with the problem. Could it work to have two committee assignments per Member, and for each committee to have two subcommittees?

Ornstein: We would have to do the mathematics. Realistic numbers must be set. Allowing Members to each serve on two committees, and five other units, is workable.

Hamilton: Discussed the risks that the Joint Committee takes:

1. Proposals that undermine Congress.

2. Labor mightily and produce a mouse.

3. Do too much and not be able to get it passed.

Must decide what the most important reform is and how to get it through.

How do we shape the committees to deal with post Cold War international issues?

Reid: Commented that an important point that needs to be considered is creating an agenda with minority input.

Senate needs a mechanical way to deal with holds. We need to do away with them, or to put time limits on them.

Mann: Suggested that public disclosure of who puts the hold on what might be helpful.

Reid: Something more may be needed.

Ornstein: Stated that public disclosure and time limits may place incentive to think twice before putting on holds.

Dreier: Stated that the discharge petition is the closest thing in the House to a hold. Do you advocate similar measures regarding it?

Mason: Yes.

Ornstein: Stated that it was a different phenomenon that should be dealt with separately.

Dreier: Should members be held accountable for their actions in respect to the discharge petition?

Mann: The point needs to be considered.

Reid: Stressed the need to review programs. Stated that he has introduced legislation to reauthorize legislation every ten years, or it fails.

Ornstein: Suggested combining such a review with multiyear authorizations.

Boren: Stated that there was a common theme during the hearing: this is a great opportunity to do something. This should be regarded as a point of optimism.

HEARING SUMMARY, MARCH 2, 1993

One Witness: Ross Perot

Chairman Boren commenced the hearing by giving a brief summary of the history of congressional reform. He stated that the Members of the Joint Committee as "trustees of this institution" are committed to making change in order to strengthen Congress. He then introduced and welcomed Ross Perot.

Vice Chairman Domenici thanked the witness for his efforts dedicated to improving America's future. He commented that the witness was helping Americans to understand the Joint Committee's effort to reform government. Senator Domenici further commented that the job of the Joint Committee could not be hurt by political motivations because it is a bipartisan group with equal numbers of members from each party.

Ross Perot

The efforts of the Joint Committee are aimed at the next generation. We have been spending their money. We must stop this and leave the American dream intact for them. Furthermore, there is the need to reform our government, rebuild our country, and lay the foundation to assure that the 21st Century will be our greatest. Unfortunately, 99% of the people believe that they have too little influence on government. You must look at why this is so.

The people feel that after going four trillion dollars into debt, a great utopia should have been created with great jobs and schools, no crime or illegal drugs, effective social programs and a growing, expanding economy. This, however, is not the case. We have a situation in which workers who once received $440 a week are now earning only $270 a week, clearly a decline in workers' salaries. We have both a four trillion dollar debt and a host of problems that will take expenditures to resolve.

The financial situation of the country is critical. The annual increase in the national debt exceeds the cost of fighting and winning World War II. Debt is like a crazy aunt who is kept in the basement. During the past election, however, she was let out and we now have to face her. Just throwing money at our problems, however, would be the same as buying a liquor store for a recovering alcoholic. We need to face the debt by going through detox.

There is a lack of confidence in government by the American people. The tax and budget summit made us skeptical. We were told that if we agreed to taxes, the budget would be brought under control. We agreed and then the deficit went up due to a mistake. The savings and loan problem has also hurt America's faith in their elected officials. In 1984, when the government was formally warned that a problem existed, nothing was done. When the problem

got out of control in 1988 and action was finally taken, it was the people who suffered.

The people are concerned that the Federal Government does not keep books. They feel that financial records are either inaccurate or non-existent. This feeling was reinforced during the economic address when President Clinton joked about the numbers being no good. Accurate numbers are needed to build support.

Our job and tax bases are deteriorating. The only solution is for every American to be employed in a well-paying job in the private sector. We do not need bubble jobs, jobs that only exist until a project is completed. Americans also realize that jobs have been exported overseas through trade agreements engineered by highly paid foreign lobbyists, many of whom were former United States government officials.

Americans are willing to accept their fair share of sacrifice, provided that programs are sound and well-conceived. They feel that this is our last chance. Previous programs have not worked and we are running out of money. We need to make this new effort work. This time, however, Americans want all the facts. They want to understand how and why things works - they want details. They want audited financial reports for each quarter. If you were a corporation, you would owe this to your stockholders. The American people deserve no less. Americans do not want tax and spending programs first, with only the possibility of cuts and savings at a later time. They want to know the entire plan in plain talk, not fancy Washington language. They want a balanced budget amendment without any loopholes. They want line item veto for the President in order to eliminate pork. They want to clean up the federal election process and get rid of the electoral college. They know that the system is obsolete. They want to see campaigns streamlined, open and untouched by PAC money.

You must listen to the people. The most successful businessmen listened to the people. Washington should do the same. You must get rid of the special interests and open channels for the people. As the owners of this country, the people want a proper voice in government. They feel that the government comes at them from Washington, manipulated and controlled by foreign lobbyists, domestic lobbyists, and special interests. They want a government that comes from them.

A quote from Cicero is still relevant today. It called for a balanced budget, a full treasury, a reduced public debt, and a control of the arrogance of public officials. The Joint Committee's work should bring about all of these things. The people are out there ready to support you. They are not "wilting like morning glories" as Tammany Hall suggested. But, before you win the people's support, you must make sacrifices. You must eliminate all of the perks and practices that have made the American people lose confidence in Congress. The Joint Committee can set a new standard of ethics in government. Do not worry

about getting the right number of votes to pass the package. If you give us great legislation, we the people, will see that it gets passed.

The American people feel that our government and some of its officials are for sale. Some foreign countries also share this view. To correct this, we must get rid of foreign lobbyists. The revolving door that allows people to move from government positions to jobs as foreign lobbyists must be slammed shut. No loopholes can be left. The role of domestic lobbyists must also be reduced. They must not be allowed to provide money, trips, influence or anything that would cause the American people to lose faith in our government. Lobbyists should be allowed to only bring ideas and information to Congress. We must declare that our government is "not for sale at any price."

We have good people in a bad system. Therefore, the system must be changed. Proposing solutions that will make the people happy, will not have the same effect on those in the beltway. The task that lies ahead of the Joint Committee is difficult. Visiting with the people however, will recharge your batteries, giving you new strength with which to face your battle. The support of the people can be gained through open, direct explanations. If it is the right thing to do, Americans will accept it. The Joint Committee has the opportunity to rebuild the base of our government. The future of our country is in your hands.

Questions and Answers

Boren: Described his bill (S.420) dealing with foreign lobbyists that accounts for the revolving door. How important is it that we cover Congress as well? Should we have a statute providing that a former Member or staffer can not accept a foreign lobbying position after leaving office?

Perot: It is very important. A standard must be set, starting at the top. The view of Americans is that lobbyists should bring ideas only, no money, no trips and no perks.

Boren: Should there be statutory enactment with penalties?

Perot: Yes, make it criminal. Keep in mind that hardly anyone went to jail in the savings and loan scandal. There were only fines. If an ordinary person stole that much money, he or she would have gone to jail.

Boren: One of the issues which we have been concerned with is the fractured time of Members. How important is it to reduce the number of committees and subcommittees and the number of committee assignments?

Perot: In order to get a system that works, we must streamline and downsize. Members have schedules that would kill an elephant, they just can