The CHAIRMAN. And one for $375? Mr. GOLDSTEIN. That is a double store. It is both for $375. Mr. GOLDSTEIN. One for $200 and one for $225. The CHAIRMAN. I was just trying to find out what your opposition to the bill is. Is it that you are afraid the facilities which might be built in Philadelphia to service the market there might cause you to lose your tenants in those buildings? Mr. GOLDSTEIN. No, sir; I do not think so. I am afraid of this situation: There is a good percentage of people who own their own properties, that use their own stores, that have them fixed up with refrigerators in their own buildings, and with the new market contemplated and built, it would naturally only be that the man is going to protect his own interest. And because there was a glut on the market, who would then suffer the farmer? Or who would get the benefit the consumer? The farmer would suffer, I would say, just like was brought out by one of the Congressmen this morning, who said there is a market in the Bronx that cost $30,000,000 that is not being utilized; it lies there dormant- what people said was needed for a market and the people go to Washington Street. And that is just what would happen on Dock Street, regardless of the fact that it is maintained here we would get more for our dollar. The CHAIRMAN. What this bill does, you understand, is just to provide a fund and to provide an insurance. There is no way Congress can force the city of Philadelphia to accept the benefits of the legislation now under consideration, and if the people of Philadelphia do not want to build a market, there is no way Congress can force them to build a market. Mr. GOLDSTEIN. I have been down on Dock Street ever since I was 17 years of age, and I am 57 now. The CHAIRMAN. How long has Dock Street been a market place? Mr. GOLDSTEIN. It was a market when I went there 40 years ago, and it was a market there before that. I have worked in Dock Street now for 40 years. The CHAIRMAN. And you have worked down there about long enough? Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Yes; I think so. Now I would like to go a little further and show my opposition to the bill. The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you one other question. How much do you have invested in the property you have in Dock Street? Mr. GOLDSTEIN. My building originally cost $200,000, and with the $44,000 of improvements I mentioned, it cost $244,000. The CHAIRMAN. It cost $244,000? Mr. GOLDSTEIN. That is correct. The CHAIRMAN. And you have 5 stores and 23 offices? Mr. GOLDSTEIN. That is correct. The CHAIRMAN. Would not that still be valuable property, even if it were not operated as a market? Mr. GOLDSTEIN. I can answer that best by saying that business has so depreciated-I mean decreased in handling produce by merchants that there is a ghost market right now only four blocks away at Callowhill Street where, up until the last 3 or 4 years, there were probably 25 merchants doing business, but on account of the distribu tion in different channels, those merchants have gone out of business. We need less facilities and will need less daily. The CHAIRMAN. How can you need less facilities with that growing population? Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Regardless of the growing population, which I recognize, the chains have, at least in our community, 75 percent of the business, and they do not buy but very little on the market. They get their cars in direct. The CHAIRMAN. And they have modern facilities? Mr. GOLDSTEIN. And they have modern facilities to handle them; that is correct. And where can the consumer save by this new market; where can the grower gain by this new market? That is the thing that was brought out. I remember here maybe 15 years ago we had the pleasure of having Mr. Crow in Philadelphia. He tried to interest private interests to build a market and go on the same competitive basis as any other investor and made the remark "There is gold in them thar hills down in Washington." But you could not get private investors to go ahead and build a market and have no business for it. There is plenty of money around Philadelphia, and you know people would be glad, Mr. Cooley, if they could get an investment and the investment would be safe. And while I am on this thing, there are probably half a dozen people on Dock Street who have no financial interest at all, and you cannot get them to put a dollar in a lease for renting certain stores. I am talking of Philadelphia; I am not talking of any other place. I know it is a national proposition, but you could not get them to put a nickel up, because they know it is not necessary. They know there are facilities there. There is space there, known as the old "welfare" building, owned by some church institute. They tore it down and built a new, up-to-date market. And they talk about these new, up-to-date improvements. People will improve their facilities when they get the money to do it, and a lot of improvements now are being put into effect to do this job. And why should we take Uncle Sam's money and build something that I know will lie idle, positively will lie idle? Because, if you can get the produce men to sign a lease and put up their dough, I say go ahead and do it, but they will not do it. The CHAIRMAN. Well, if they do not do it, then they won't be bothered with the new building; but if they evidence an interest in it and want a brand new facility in a more desirable location, with sizable rail and truck transportation facilities, we are just trying to give it to them. Mr. GOLDSTEIN. It is just like how many meals can you eat? You can only eat one at a time. There is enough, and we have enough facilities there. We have facilities for 1,500 kinds of produce. The CHAIRMAN. Can a railroad run into the Dock Street market? Mr. GOLDSTEIN. No; neither can a railroad of 20 cars of merchandise back up to a man's stand. That is most ridiculous. They can put in a railroad siding for the man who handles six cars of tomatoes, three cars of canteloupes or lettuce. Now you can spot 20 cars. But the State of Texas could not give you sufficient room to build a market in New York of that kind. Mr. GRANGER. If I understood you, Mr. Goldstein, you said "a moment ago, that you were president of this Association of Car Lot Receivers. Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Yes, sir; I am president this year. Mr. GRANGER. But they are not appearing on this bill because of a division of sentiment among the Association of Car Lot Receivers? Mr. GOLDSTEIN. No, sir. I only mentioned that because I did not want to be misconstrued by any member of our group that I am here representing the group. I want it definitely understood that I am representing Louis D. Goldstein and Louis D. Goldstein only. Mr. GRANGER. I thought I definitely understood you to say there was a division of sentiment on this bill among the members of your organization. Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Yes. There are a few members the majority we have not polled, but we have had a directors meeting when it was discussed, and they decided to remain neutral in the matter, and they did not want to appear on it particularly. Mr. GRANGER. But some of them favored it? Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Some of them favored it, yes, but the people in favor-I made a few memoranda of the things I had to say, but I made no prepared talk, no prepared speech; I just went along and prepared notes of what the people testified. Mr. GRANGER. Did you seek authority from them to appear for the organization? Mr. GOLDSTEIN. No, sir. Mr. GRANGER. Did not a majority of them have a little different opinion on this measure? Mr. GOLDSTEIN. No, sir; they did not, sir. We discussed the matter, and they said they would not take any part in it at all, and the only reason I am here today is I am one of the opposition. We have written a letter and I have the letter here-written by the manager of our association, and he turned it over to us, and knowing this hearing was in progress, I thought I would come down and look out for my interest. The CHAIRMAN. We thank you very much, Mr. Goldstein, for the testimony you have given. Mr. GOLDSTEIN. I will be glad to answer any questions. Mr. ALBERT. Why are you opposed to the bill, when the bill would not have anything to do with the operations in Philadelphia unless the Philadelphia people wanted it to? I Mr. GOLDSTEIN. I did not understand that in that manner. assure you, as I made the statement here and that still goes-that it will be impossible for Government funds to finance a proposition that is unnecessary. It is absolutely a duplication of service. We have the cheapest method of handling merchandise; we have enough facilities. But I did not bring out, now that you ask me the question, that of the Pennsylvania Railroad's three platforms, of the two of them that are in use at the present time not over 50 percent of them are used, and the other one is rented to a truck company because there is no need for it for the produce business. And the same thing applies to the B. & O. Railroad for their two platforms. They have one that is about 50 percent occupied, and the other is rented for warehousing to the chains. That shows how much we need this new terminal. What we need is business to trickle back in the form of distribution we had years ago. That has got away from us, and we cannot help it. The CHAIRMAN. You want to go back to the time when you really were congested in the Dock Street market? Mr. GOLDSTEIN. I do not want to go back to the time we were congested, but I would like to go back to the time when I only handled 1,200 cars this year, where I used to handle 1,700. The CHAIRMAN. What is causing the business to leave Dock Street? Mr. GOLDSTEIN. A difference in the form of distribution. The chain stores do it now. can. The CHAIRMAN. And the chain stores, when they started to handle it, found it was a less difficult proposition to handle it in a market place, and they went out and built their own storage warehouses? Mr. GOLDSTEIN. No, sir. They can buy on a better basis than we The growers are catering to them I do not blame them. That is all right. It is to the benefit of the consumer; the chain is a benefit to the consumer. And rightfully so. They do a terrific job and try to sell stuff at the right prices, and they are doing it. And I do not blame them for it. The chains buy very little of us. Before the chains and all of the big supermarkets, we had all of those little individuals, and they never would buy produce if it was not satisfactory, and what was not satisfactory the chains let us have. The CHAIRMAN. And the bulk of the fruits and produce that was sold on the Dock Street market-how did it get into that market-by railroad? Mr. GOLDSTEIN. I would say-I am just naturally taking a guess, but I would say 75 percent goes in by rail. I am talking about rail to the terminals as well as to the chains. The CHAIRMAN. It goes into Philadelphia by rail? Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. And it is taken from the cars on trucks and taken to the markets; is it not? Mr. GOLDSTEIN. No, sir-a very small percentage. That is something else I am glad you called my attention to. A very small percentage is hauled from the terminal to the Dock Street market-a very, very small percentage. The CHAIRMAN. I am talking about from the railroad yard. The CHAIRMAN. Where the refrigerator car is parked and you take it out of there. How far a haul is it to get it to that market? Mr. GOLDSTEIN. You mean to Dock Street or the place where it is sampled? The CHAIRMAN. To Dock Street? Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Over to Dock and, say, Walnut there would probably be between two and a half and three miles. The CHAIRMAN. That it has to be handled by truck? Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Yes; but a very small percentage of it. The produce that comes on Dock Street is not hauled away over there, except by the people who buy the merchandise. But the trucking is a result-Dock Street is a result of the opportunity to go to the wholesale truck market and has nothing to do with the railroads. The CHAIRMAN. Well, can trucks go into the Dock Street market all right? Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Yes, sir. Naturally there are times of congestion. I would have to admit that. But you take 6 months ago: You could play football on Dock Street, and baseball included. The CHAIRMAN. All right. Thank you very much. Mr. GRANGER. Mr. Goldstein, I take it from your testimony that the making available of Government money over a long period of time might, in your judgment, cause some people to borrow money to build a facility that you do not think is necessary. Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Will you repeat that? I did not get the whole question. Mr. GRANGER. I say do you think because some persons might get this Government money over a long period of time it might induce them to build a facility or market that would not be necessary? Mr. GOLDSTEIN. I honestly-the question is do you think they would build it if they could get Government money? Mr. GRANGER. Do you think that would be an influence to them to get the money, just because they could get it from the Government? Mr. GOLDSTEIN. I certainly do. I do not think you could interest any private interests to do it. It has been tried now for 15 years or more, and the best proof is that they never did do it, because they could not get enough reliable people and this is going right that way-they could not get enough reliable people to sign leases to put themselves on a lease for any length of time in any new project. Mr. GRANGER. Now, if that were true and some persons got together and decided they wanted to build a market and built it at some other place, that naturally would affect real estate that had been set up for that purpose; would it not? Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Absolutely. I think it would cut the value of property on Dock Street in half. Mr. GRANGER. And that is one of the objections you have? Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Naturally, sir. Mr. GRANGER. Because, naturally, your building and property is set up for the purpose of distributing farm commodities. Mr. GOLDSTEIN. That is what it is handled for. Mr. GRANGER. And, of course, if that business was moved elsewhere, it would depreciate the value of your property for that purpose? Mr. GOLDSTEIN. That is correct. Mr. GRANGER. But it might be valuable for some other thing, however? Mr. GOLDSTEIN. The only answer I have to that is the fact that there is a market today at Callowhill and Vine Streets, that I mentioned before, that had 125 merchants, and I think it has gone down right now to 15 or 20. That would cover it. It is a ghost town. And there is the same sort of place about two blocks below Dock Street that is what I call Spruce and Pine-where we had merchants all the way from Spruce to South Streets, and I think on both sides of the street. I would say probably they took in 50 or 60 merchants or maybe more and that is very, very conservative, too-and right now, in that same location, I do not thing there are 15. So I say why build more facilities when we already have too much. Mr. GRANGER. In your judgment, is the necessity for these big public markets more or less essential now than it was a few years ago? Mr. GOLDSTEIN. It is less essential now, Congressman, for the reason I brought out that our association, I think, handled in excess of 20,000 cars in the year 1948, and last year we were down to a little over 18,000, and at the rate we are going today we are going to handle less in 1950. Mr. GRANGER. The chain stores in the last few years are handling the big percentage of the produce? |