PATRICK CONROY, sworn.

Examined by Mr. VAN DYKE:

Question. You have been examined before in this case.-Answer. Yes, sir, before the commissioner.

Q. State to the court and jury what you know in this matter, and what you have heard from either of these defendants, Hertz or Perkins.-A. I never saw Hertz, but at the United States commissioner's office I had the conversation about this matter with Mr. Perkins.

Q. State when you had that conversation, and what it was.-A. Well, I was introduced to Mr. Perkins at the Pennsylvanian office. Is it necessary for me to state all of this matter?

Mr. VAN DYKE. If it relates to the issue now on trial, state all. WITNESS. I was introduced to Mr. Perkins at the Pennsylvanian office some time last December, I suppose in that neighborhood; and a few

days afterward I had a conversation with him at Mr. McGeoy's [396] hotel, in *Walnut street, in which he said there were things he

might wish to talk to me about; I did not understand it at the time, and, not knowing what he meant, I did not say anything; the next time I met him was at the Pennsylvanian office again; he was about leaving it in the evening, and he was cursing and ready to kill all about the office, damning everybody in the office; I asked him what was the matter, and he took me by the arm and we walked down a little; he said that he had just been writing a letter to one of the lords in England, who had charge of the government there; that he had everything right with the Pennsylvanian newspaper here, so far as siding with the government against Russia was concerned, and when the first thing he saw that morning, was an article directly against what he had written to England, and that the Pennsylvanian had deceived him; I passed it off carelessly, as I did not care what was going on between him and the Pennsylvanian, or the British government. I met him again some time afterward in the Exchange Hotel, and

he called me to one side and told me that it was necessary [397] *to raise a certain amount of men in this country for the purpose

of raising a legion to go to the Crimea. I asked him how it was, and he said that such was the case. I asked him, then, whether there was any danger in enlisting men in this country for that purpose, for I had heard that there was, and he said no; that he had been down at Washington, and fixed all that. He said that Mr. Crampton sent for him, and when he went to Crampton, he sent him to Marcy, and when Marcy asked him all about it, he said he humbugged him about it, and told him he was only going to send the men to Halifax to dig a canal; that Mr. Marcy, in reply remarked that he was a pretty cunning fellow, and then it all passed over; it was all fixed, and there was no more danger at all about it; he then said to me that if I would choose to take a part in the matter, that he would guarantee me a commission in the legion for a certain number of men, and for a less number he could guarantee a non-commission; that if I would take an interest in the matter, he would fix things for me, but that it would

take two or three months to do so; that I knew there were a great [398] many men over the country who were suffering from bad times,

and who could be enlisted, and that he would make it to my interest to do so. I told him I would think about. The next time I saw him he was going directly from his office in Third street; from the steps of his office he went down to Campbell's cellar in Third street. He was there a minute or more, and then he came up and came over to me,

opposite the Exchange Hotel; he took me by the arm, and pulled me to one side, and asked me if I had done anything in that matter yet; I said no, I did not intend to do anything in the matter myself, but there were friends that might; he then said to me that he could not guarantee a commission in the regular army, but he could in the foreign legion, and if I had friends who would take such positions, he would guarantee them the same, and if I saw any who wanted to enlist to send them over to the office, 68 South Third street. I said I would do so, and he then remarked, I am now in a hurry; I am going down to the British consul's; I have news from Washington, and I will see you when I come

back. I had no more conversation with him on the subject, ex[399] cept that he told me he was an agent of the British government, and had three hundred or four hundred men to look after in this country, and pay them. He told me that on the occasion when he had to see me in a hurry; he repeatedly told me that he was an agent of the British government, and solicited my assistance in all these ways for the purpose of raising men for the foreign legion.

Q. Did he tell you where the enlisting was done?-A. He did; he pointed over to the office, No. 68 South Third street.

Q. Where was he at the time?—A. Standing on the steps of Durar's Exchange Hotel.

Q. How long before the arrest of Hertz?-A. Some two or three weeks.

Q. Are you in the volunteer corps?—A. Yes, sir; I hold the commission of colonel.

Q. Did he ask you anything about the commission you had?—A. Yes, sir, he asked me what commission I held, and I told him colonel of the Second Regiment of Pennsylvania Volunteers, and he said he could

guarantee me a captaincy, if I would go, and he knew from my [400] position here* that I could be of use to them, and he would make

it of use to me. I have stated pretty near the whole substance of the conversations; we had a great many other conversations, but but there was nothing stronger in them.

Q. Did he tell you at any time, or do you know, that he actually engaged any person to go to Halifax for the purpose of enlisting, and, if so, what person ?—A. I do not, sir; I know he tried to engage me. Q. Did he not engage you?-A. No, sir; I refused him, and he tried to get me to solicit others to do so.

By Mr. GILLON:

Q. He said that you could be useful to him in that line of business?— A. Yes, sir.

Q. You are in business in this city?-A. Yes, sir.

Question. Are you a military man?-Answer. 1 belong to a military company and hold a commission.

Q. Do you know anything about Hertz?-A. I do; I was at his [401] office in South *Third street about the 20th or 21st of March, or thereabouts; I went to 68 South Third street, and went up stairs into a back room, and there I found some five or six men sitting around the table; I spoke first to this gentleman here, I think, Mr. Leob; I asked him whether that was the place in which they enlist men for the Crimea; he said that this gentleman, pointing to Mr. Hertz, was the person. I then

turned to him, and asked him what were the inducements offered to those men who had served in Mexico during the war. He said that any man who could come with a company, and capable of commanding them, would be entitled to a commission in the English army; that this legion was for the purpose of going to the Crimea; he asked me if I was connected with anything here; I told him that I was; that I then held a commission; and he asked me then what number of men there were; well, I said, we numbered from sixty to sixty-four, but there was not more than thirty equipped. He then seemed anxious that I should call again; I left him with the promise that I would call again; I did so, in

company with Peter Somers, who was formerly first lieutenant of [402] *the Continental Guards; I went there, and introduced Mr. Somers

under a fictitious name; I did that for the purpose of ascertaining how they sent the men away, so as to have him ascertain that fact. We had a conversation, for the second time, with Mr. Hertz, and Somers laughed, and I thought the joke was being carried too far, and I kind of smiled, and then I saw the whole thing was settled, and we retired. On the 27th, the night before the arrest, a man by the name of Renners, I think, came to the armory while I was drilling the company.

Q. Was Mr. Hertz there?-A. No, sir.

Q. Do you know whether Perkins had anything to do with that of fice?-A. Yes, sir; the second time that I went there, that was on the Saturday, Mr. Perkins was sitting in the front room.

Q. When you land at the top of the staircase going up, you go into the back room of that office first, do you not?-A. Yes, sir; and that makes the front room the back room; there was two folding-doors be

tween the two rooms, and they were partly open; the room fronting [403] on Third street was used as the back or private office, *and the

back room as the front office. There was a tall man there, from whose appearance and manner I supposed he was an English officer, or one engaged in the English service. Perkins was sitting on a chair leaning back, and as he saw me he drew his head back.

Q. Do you know from any conversation you had with Perkins, or are you aware, that Perkins has ever engaged any individual to go to Halifax to enlist?-A. Well, I would not, may it please the court, like to answer that question, because it would, to a certain extent, criminate me, so far as the law of the State is concerned.

Mr. VAN DYKE. I did not ask you anything regarding yourself with Perkins.

Q. Do you know whether he has engaged, hired, or retained, or made a bargain with any other individual?—A. I know that he left me one evening to go to New York for the purpose of attending to some business for Mr. Crampton.

Q. You do not exactly comprehend my question. Do you know whether he ever said to any individual, "I want you to go," or did he engage any individual to go to Halifax ?-A. No, sir.

[404] *Q. Do you know what he was doing in the front office when you saw him there?-A. No, sir.

Q. What was your conversation at that time?-A. Mr. Hertz and I were speaking together about this company.

Q. Was that the only time you saw him there?-A. I saw him afterward come out; I went there with a number of persons, who waited on the outside to hear what was to be said, as they were determined that the thing should be broken up; and as we stood on the other side, Mr. Perkins came out, and went down into Campbell's cellar, and then he came out and over to the other side, and spoke to Conroy and some

others with him; my introduction to Perkins was that he came with a note to me as the second of a gentleman who had challenged a friend of mine to fight a duel.

Q. He told you he was going to New York to see Crampton ?—A. Yes, sir; he said he had business with him; he told me that in Brown's drug-store.

Q. Did he tell you what business?-A. No, sir; he told me that he had a great deal of business to do now; that he was connected with the railroad, and had to see his friend Mr. Crampton in New York.

[405] *HUGH CASEY sworn.

Examined by Mr. VAN DYKE:

Question. Do you know Mr. Hertz?-Answer. Yes, sir.

Q. (Pointing to Mr. Hertz.) Is that the gentleman?-A. That is the gentleman.

Q. Do you know Mr. Budd?-A. Yes, sir; (pointing to Budd,) that's him.

Q. Did you go to the office No. 68 South Third street?—A. Yes, sir; I went there, and Mr. Hertz and I had a conversation. I saw in the Ledger that they were enlisting for the foreign legion there, and I went down and saw Mr. Hertz, and he told me to come back and he would give me a ticket; I went there on Friday and he gave me a ticket to sail on board the boat with, and twelve and a half cents, and told me that the boat would sail on Sunday, the 25th; I went back on Saturday, with three other men who enlisted with me, and he gave me a quarter of a dollar. On Saturday afternoon I went back again, and he gave me nine cents, and on Sunday I went down to the boat, and she had sailed. I went to the office on Monday, and Mr. Hertz was not there, but Mr. Budd was there, and he told me to come back on Wednesday, and he would give me a ticket. On Wednesday I went down.

Q. What did you do with the ticket you got on the first occa[406] sion?-A. I gave that ticket up; I guess you have it now. *On

Wednesday I went down there, and met Budd at the steamboat with Mr. Hertz; Mr. Hertz saw me, and told me to go on board. I went on board the steamboat, and there I saw the rest of the men had tickets in their hands, and I had none, and then I went up to the office, thinking that Hertz was there, to get a ticket, and when I came back the boat had sailed.

Q. Did Hertz give you the first ticket?-A. No, sir; Mr. Budd gave me the ticket himself for Sunday; I do not recollect getting it on Saturday; the 31st of March I saw Mr. Hertz.

Q. When you got back from the office, you say the boat had sailed?— A. Yes, sir; I went up to the office in Third street, and when I came back the boat had sailed; it was the Menemon Sanford; I then came back and saw Mr. Hertz, on Saturday, in Mr. Heazlitt's (I think that is his name) office; he was looking for bail, and I went over to him, and Hertz said to me, "Who is going your bail?" and I said, "I do not want any bail, because I come out of the boat to get a passenger-ticket and did not go;" and he then said, "Do you want a little money?" and told me to step around by-and-by and he would give me some money; I went

around at 4 o'clock. Mr. Remak and him went up to Seventh [407] and Chestnut *streets, and I waited in the room until he came back, when he gave me twenty-five cents, and said to me, "You will go and swear against me, and be damned to you.”

Q. Did you tell him what you wanted to go to Halifax for?-A. I said times were very hard, and I would like to go to Halifax for the purpose

of enlisting in the foreign legion for the Crimea; and then he said that he would give me tickets to go there, and that I would get $30 bounty and $8 a month, but that he could give me no money until I went on to Halifax.

Cross-examined by Mr. REMAK:

Q. Did you not tell some people that you were going to see Mr. Van Dyke, and get him to send you to prison for the purpose of your support?—A. I did not, sir, use that expression; I told a person that I met on the street that I was fooled by the party, and that Mr. Hertz insulted me, and I would go as State's evidence against him.

PHILIP LABEL sworn.

As this witness could not speak the English language, Mr. Davis was, at the request of Mr. Remak, affirmed as his interpreter.

[408]

Examined by Mr. VAN DYKE:

Question. Do you know Mr. Hertz?-*Answer. Yes, sir; (pointing to Hertz,) that is the gentleman sitting there.

Q. State all you know about the enlisting.-A. I read in the Democrat that some persons were required to go to Halifax, and I went to the office, No. 68 South Third street, and made some inquiries there if that was the place for enlisting; I made the inquiries of Mr. Bosschart; I then inquired if they engaged some people there; they told me that they desired to engage some persons to go to Halifax in order to work there; I then asked him if I could become a soldier if I went there; he made the reply that it was left optional to me to do so or not; that those who are willing to become soldiers may do so, and those who wished to work may do so too.

Q. Did you say whether you were willing to become a soldier, and that you wanted to become such?-A. No, sir; I did not intend to go there as a soldier; I made the inquiry, if when a person got there he enlisted, what he received; I was then told there was $30 bounty and $8 a month.

Q. Who told you that?-A. The same man, Mr. Bosschart.

Q. What conversation, if any, took place between you and Hertz?— A. The first day that I came there I saw this gentleman there; I then inquired what time the vessel would go; he told me that he did [409] not know; *that Mr. Hertz was not in, and he could not tell me. I went there again on the following day and saw Mr. Hertz, and he handed me a card.

Q. (Ticket shown same as on page -, ante.) Was it a card like that? -A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you sign any paper?—A. No, sir; I did not; that gentleman put my name down on some paper; Mr. Bosschart did so.

Q. Did you go to the vessel ?-A. Yes, sir; Mr. Hertz told me where the vessel was, and I went toward it-that is all; I went on board, and that is all.

Q. Did you go to Halifax?-A. No, sir.

Q. Why not?-A. Because we were arrested before then.

Q. Who had command of you on the boat?-A. Mr. Budd.

JAMES JOHNSON sworn.

Examined by Mr. VAN DYKE:

WITNESS. Mathew Burk is my proper name; you will see it so on

Mr. Hertz's list.

Question. How came you to get the name of James Johnson ?—Answer.