In other words, I would not say some people ought to be kept down, and some people ought to be lifted up just because they happened to have pushed their way up in the world.

Senator TUNNELL. Let us put it the other way. Do you think they should be lifted up?

Monsignor LIGUTTI. I think justice to human beings demands that the proper standard of living should be possible for every human being who has been created by Almighty God.

Senator TUNNELL. Then you are not arguing against the bill, you are simply arguing for an amendment?

Monsignor LIGUTTI. Yes.

I am arguing in favor of the specific group which has always been left out under all circumstances. That is the thing that we have always argued for.

Senator TUNNELL. Yes.

Monsignor LIGUTTI. Particularly in the large scale industrialized farming. They are factories and yet they are left out. They are left out here and they are left out there, in the question of old-age benefits, the question of social security, the question of this, that, and the other thing, the farm worker is left out everywhere at all times.

Senator ELLENDER. What about your small one-horse farmer in Georgia or Louisiana? You have them by the hundreds. I know, because I have lived among them, and I know their problem. Monsignor LIGUTTI. Yes.

Senator ELLENDER. In order to afford them the same rate of pay per hour as you are advocating for industrial labor here, why, they would have to probably sell their cotton for $1.25 pound.

Do you think our economy could stand such a high price for cotton? Monsignor LIGUTTI. It does not make any difference what our economy can stand. It is a question of what those human beings have had to stand in the huts and in shacks, and in the swamps of Louisiana and Mississippi, in the Delta.

I do not think in any part of the world any individual ought to benefit by the suffering of somebody else.

Senator TUNNELL. We have been given to believe that people live cheaper in those swamps. Is there anything to that?

Monsignor LIGUTTI. You can try it sometime, Senator, and see how it feels.

Senator ELLENDER. Of course you know, Father, they do not live in swamps.

They have a trade in swamps, like trapping, but they live on high land.

Monsignor LIGUTTI. I went through all the low places in Louisiana just 2 weeks ago, when it was raining, Senator.

Senator ELLENDER. Yes.

Monsignor LIGUTTI. And I suffered from the heat there as much as anyone could suffer.

Senator ELLENDER. I see.

Monsignor LIGUTTI. We are making an appeal for justice all the way around.

Senator ELLENDER. I am in full agreement with you.

Monsignor LIGUTTI. I am sure you would be, because that is the way they think in Louisiana, Senator.

Senator ELLENDER. I know that.

I would like to see that, but I have expressed some opposition to this bill because it takes care of one group at the expense of the others.

Monsignor LIGUTTI. Would you be willing then to put the extra groups in and then go along with it?

Senator ELLENDER. If there were a way to raise these various groups, school teachers, pensioners, and everybody else, I would go along with you, but I know it is not practical, I know we cannot do it.

Monsignor LIGUTTI. Now, now, now, Senator, any human problem can always be solved by human beings.

Senator ELLENDER. People have tried it for over 2,000 years and they have not succeded so far.

Monsignor LIGUTTI. We are getting quite a ways ahead compared to 2,000 years ago, and we should try to continue on rather than try to postpone and postpone.

I do think, first of all, we ought to admit the principle. That is primary.

Senator ELLENDER. Yes.

Monsignor LIGUTTI. Then the second thing is we ought to keep on going ahead even a little at a time.

I am perfectly sure you cannot change the world overnight, or in a minute, but we have to go in the right direction.

I am making the plea for the inclusion of agricultural laborers, for better living conditions, for a decent standard of living, better housing, better health facilities, and so forth.

You know about the health condition in the Lafayette Parish in Louisiana. I do not think I should buy a suit of clothes and pay less money at the expense of the people in the Lafayette Parish. Senator ELLENDER. What would you do?

Monsignor LIGUTTI. I would sooner wear a fig leaf.

Senator ELLENDER. I mean, how would you raise them up? Monsignor LIGUTTI. I say we have taken it for granted that they have got to work for so little.

Senator ELLENDER. How would you raise them up? That is one of the things we must fight for here.

The only way by which you could help the people in Lafayette Parish is raise the price of the crops they produce. Is that not right? Monsignor LIGUTTI. That is one of the means.

There are other things, such as education within the State itself, and better conditions of living that can be effected right within the State itself.

Senator ELLENDER. Yes, but the thing that makes the horse go is what? The food he eats. The thing that makes the farmer go is the return he gets on the product he sells.

Monsignor LIGUTTI. Senator, practically all over Louisiana you can raise everything that a family needs.

And furthermore, there isn't any place in the world that is more productive than Louisiana, and the question is not using it for the proper purposes.

Then there is the question, of course, of giving to whoever raises anything for sale such a price that it will elevate him and make it possible for him to get the right kind of standard of living, the proper housing, proper facilities for raising a decent sort of family.

Senator ELLENDER. You take the cotton farmer in Lafayette, La., the parish you are talking about: He grows practically 60 percent of

his own living, but his staple crop is cotton or rice or sweetpotatoes or sugarcane; that is what he depends on.

Monsignor LIGUTTI. He could raise almost anything else he wants. Senator ELLENDER. That may be. Some places you cannot profitably raise anything but sugarcane, such as in my parish, Terrebonne. Farmers tried to grow cotton in my own parish, but the stalks grew so tall that they had to use ladders to pick it and

Monsignor LIGUTTI. Just like corn in Iowa.

Senator ELLENDER. Our country is so diversified that you cannot write out a formula that would be applicable to all of our people. In my own parish large land owners cannot ordinarily make money on any crop except sugarcane.

Monsignor LIGUTTI. How about potatoes?

Senator ELLENDER. Some can make it on Irish potatoes.

Monsignor LIGUTTI. You can make good money on sweet potatoes in that neighborhood.

Senator ELLENDER. Yes; but the markets are choked up today with potatoes. Some time ago some of us got the Government to guarantee the purchase of potatoes to the tune of $6,000,000 in order to protect a few farmers, in order that they might receive a fair price for their potatoes.

Monsignor LIGUTTI. What is $6,000,000?

Senator ELLENDER. Nothing, but if we spend $6,000,000 here, $2,000,000 there, and $450,000,000 yonder, sometimes it adds to more than the taxpayers can bear.

Monsignor LIGUTTI. I am not questioning it at all. After all, that is the reason we have all the wise men in the Senate and all the economists to figure out a way whereby human beings can be given a decent existence.

Senator ELLENDER. You are a wise man. I wish you could suggest a formula that would have the effect of raising everybody upward and I would be with you. I do not mean now, Father, to build them all up to the same station at the same time. I do not mean that, but only to the extent necessary so as not to disturb the groups not covered by the pending bill.

Monsignor LIGUTTI. Now, listen. I read a book once upon a time, and I hear this expression very often: "Let us not disturb the present order," but, Senator, if the present order is disorder then it is not order. You see we say, "Well, this is the order under which we live, therefore let us not disturb it," but it is not order when some human beings are just down and out, when some poor children cannot go to school, and when some teachers, let us say in Louisiana, who have an AB degree, can only get $30 a month. That is not order; that is disorder.

I say it is the prime purpose, and a very important purpose, of most society and democratic government to see to it that steps be taken in the direction not merely of preserving the present disorder but to establish order, an order that will be a decent democratic order where every human being can have a decent chance for a decent existence. Senator ELLENDER. Some say in south Louisiana "if a man cannot make a living he is either sick or lazy."

Monsignor LIGUTTI. If the farmers and people down there could have a decent wage, Louisiana could purchase Texas and many other States. You figure a way out, Senator.

Senator ELLENDER. I would not be in the Senate if I could, I would be too smart.

Monsignor LIGUTTI. Too smart?

Senator ELLENDER. Yes.

Monsignor LIGUTTI. Senators can do a lot of good; they have done a lot of good as well as a lot of bad.

Senator ELLENDER. We will reach our goal gradually, Father. Neither you nor anybody else, I do not believe, would be capable of drafting a bill that would take care of everybody. Every time we pass special legislation for certain groups we are bound to tread on the feet of other groups.

Monsignor LIGUTTI. Would you be in favor of giving social security to farm labor?

Senator ELLENDER. Yes.

Monsignor LIGUTTI. Old age and survivors' benefits?

Senator ELLENDER. Yes.

Monsignor LIGUTTI. You would be in favor of giving all those things. So we look upon you to fight for that, because I know what your constituents want down there and what is the right thing. Now, do whatever you can.

Senator ELLENDER. You are not a voter from Louisiana?

Monsignor LIGUTTI. I am not a voter, but I influence votes down there, Senator.

Senator ELLENDER. I see.

Monsignor LIGUTTI. Well, I want to thank you very much.

Senator TUNNELL. Thank you. We will recess until 3 o'clock. (Whereupon, at 12:25 p. m., a recess was taken until 3 p. m. of the same day.)

AFTERNOON SESSION

The subcommittee reconvened at 3 p. m., following the recess, Senator Tunnell presiding.

Senator TUNNELL. Is Mr. McKenzie here?

Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes.

TESTIMONY OF HOWARD MCKENZIE, VICE PRESIDENT, NATIONAL MARITIME UNION, CIO

Senator TUNNELL. Just give your name, if you will, and your position.

Mr. MCKENZIE. Howard McKenzie, vice president of the National Maritime Union, CIO.

Senator TUNNELL. Do you have a written statement, Mr. McKenzie?

Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Senator TUNNELL. How long is it?

Mr. MCKENZIE. I will not read it. I just want to make some comments on it, and I will file the brief with the committee. I am just going to get at the meat of some of the things; in other words, off the cuff.

Senator TUNNELL. Just proceed in your own way.

Mr. MCKENZIE. First of all, gentlemen, I would like to file this brief for the record. This is presented by the CIO Maritime Committee on behalf of the National Maritime Union of America, with

90,000 members, the Marine Cooks' and Stewards' Association of the Pacific, with 15,000 members, the Inland Boatmen's Union of the Pacific, with a membership of 3,000 on the inland waters of the Pacific coast, the American Communications Association, Marine Department, representing 5,000 members, Radio Operators aboard lake and ocean vessels, and the Marine Engineers Beneficial Association, representing 15,000 engineers on the rivers, lakes, and oceans. (The statement referred to appears in the appendix.)

Senator ELLENDER. What is your connection with these unions? Mr. MCKENZIE. I am vice president of the National Maritime Union and I am presenting the statement for the CIO Maritime Committee, which includes the unions I have just referred to.

As I say, I just want to touch on some of the highlights of this brief, and in sailor language tell you why we believe the seamen should be included in this act, and why we think we are entitled to 65 cents an hour and a 40-hour week.

In the first place, the seamen were not included specifically in the Fair Labor Standards Act, and the reason for it was this:

In 1937, the United States Maritime Commission made promises to the seamen that they would establish good working conditions, good wages, and good manning scales aboard ships. It was at that time that the question arose as to whether or not the seamen should be under the Fair Labor Standards Act. The question was raised at the time that there would be two agencies to administer minimum standards for seamen and that there might be a conflict between the Maritime Commission's jurisdiction and the agency administering the Fair Labor Standards Act. Our position was indefinite at that time for this reason. On the basis of the profuse promises of the Maritime Commission to take such good care of the seamen, and in view of the fact that as so-called wards of the Government we were to be afforded special treatment, the question was not pressed by the Maritime Union.

Senator ELLENDER. What led you to believe that by being under the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 you would remain under the jurisdiction of the Maritime Commission?

Mr. MCKENZIE. We had the belief at that time that the Maritime Commission might give us more than 40 cents an hour.

Senator ELLENDER. In other words, to be frank and candid, I presume that the rates fixed in the Fair Labor Standards Act were not very attractive to the Maritime Union; is that true?

Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes.

Senator ELLENDER. And that is the reason why you did not attempt to get in under that act?

Mr. MCKENZIE. On the basis of promises of Government officials, we thought we had protection.

Senator ELLENDER. And now you want to come under it because of the attractive rates-or at least the more attractive rates that have been suggested in the bill?

Mr. MCKENZIE. That is correct.

Now, following that situation, in 1937 the Maritime Commission did institute hearings throughout the country in various coastal cities to ascertain the actual wages, conditions, and so on, of seamen. They started a survey, and then it suddenly died a natural death. As a matter of fact, we have been pressing for the last 6 or 7 years for the United States Maritime Commission to do something about