Mr. Moss. I think we will. I am willing to be convinced. Mr. LINDBERG. Might I suggest, Mr. Moss, while Mr. Backster is setting this up, that in the event his demonstration is not convincing to each and everyone of you, that we have been working closely, not only with Mr. John Reid for the past 20 years, but more recently with the biomedical staff of Northwestern University, with the same people who work with the psychiatrists with their problems, with the surgeons with their problems, and with the physiologists and these other people with their problems, trying to work on interdisciplinary approaches to solve the problems of each field. They have established to our satisfaction that we do use the same techniques, for example, in analyzing records; namely, the impression technique that the neurologists and these other people who are generally looked upon as being accomplished and accurate and definite and so forth. We use similar procedures. Mr. Moss. Mr. Lindberg, you use similar procedures, but you must concede that you do not have similar training. Mr. LINDBERG. That is correct. Mr. Moss. Yet you are dealing with the same thing, the human being. Mr. LINDBERG. Yes. Mr. Moss. If you had a very recent thorough physical examination of your subject, and perhaps some psychological examination of the subject, then I think there might be a basis to move ahead with that person coming into your office and submitting to an examination, frequently under great duress. Because while we talk very easily of the voluntary nature of this, the fact that it becomes a requirement for employment brings in an element of compulsion. It may be economic forces that make the individual submit to something which otherwise in the true voluntary sense he would not submit to. Mr. LINDBERG. Might I suggest, Mr. Moss, that it is the same compulsion that causes many also to take the written examination as to intelligence of the physical exam? Mr. Moss. I realize that. Mr. LINDBERG. The same compulsion and nothing in excess of that. Mr. Moss. Here we are talking about a very new field. Mr. LINDBERG. Yes. Mr. Moss. Where we rely significantly upon the physiological reaction he has as an individual. Mr. LINDBERG. Yes. But it is the type of reactions that are rather well known in medicine, for example. They have prevailed now for 50 or more years. Mr. Moss. In the hands of a doctor I wouldn't have the serious questions. Well known in medicine but not well known in the hands of the average, rather deficiently trained operator. Mr. LINDBERG. Might I suggest that the expert in the polygraph field is trained specifically in the art or science of the detection of deception and in that regard no psychiatrist, psychologist, doctor, or neurologist is better qualified? Mr. Moss. I wouldn't argue with you on that if that person also had the training which could inform him that the response I am getting might be an indication of deception or it might be an indication of some very basic physiological problem in that human machine. Mr. LINDBERG. Frequently, if those problems evidence themselves in the polygraph records, we do consult with the people that you are concerned with. Over the years, we have built quite an impressive record of research. Mr. Moss. Today we are using many exotic drugs and medications. The full impact of those upon the human body is at the moment not understood by the medical profession. We had to enact far more stringent testing requirements. You recall that we have had some rather shocking side effects of many of these drugs. Mr. LINDBERG. That is correct. Mr. Moss. It is suspected that many accidents occur on highways because people routinely use something which interferes with the normal function either of the mind or of the body. Mr. LINDBERG. We have been consulted by people who are interested in studying the effects of those drugs. We are working in the biomedical area on that. They want our learning. Mr. Moss. They want your learning but there is not still in this field the active participation of the qualified medical researcher, the qualified researcher in psychiatry, that I would like to see. Mr. LINDBERG. Yes, there is. Mr. Moss. You say yes, there is. Maybe there is academically. Mr. LINDBERG. We are the practitioners and the researchers as well. But there are other people in the background. Mr. Moss. What is your qualification in medicine? Mr. LINDBERG. I am a practitioner of polygraph examinations. Mr. LINDBERG. Fairly substantially. I don't work with it every day. I have had practically every physiological course. Mr. Moss. How closely do you follow the reports of new drugs and medications? Mr. LINDBERG. We receive a significant amount of literature in the field. Mr. Moss. One of the great problems today is even attempting to keep up with the literature when encountered in daily practice. Mr. LINDBERG. That is why so many of them are so uninformed in the area of polygraph because they don't have the opportunity. Mr. BACKSTER. May Ihave one statement, please? Mr. Moss. I am going to have some questions for you, too. Mr. REUSS. Mr. Chairman, I would like to know before the demonstration starts just what is being demonstrated here and how long it is going to take. Mr. Moss. He said it would be very brief. Mr. BACKSTER. Very brief; yes, sir. Mr. Moss. He would explain as he goes along. (At this point, the showing of slides began with slide No. 2201.) Mr. BACKSTER. Gentlemen, in this particular chart, we have represented by color code, two distinct and different types of questions used in an examination. This is really meant to be green, my color photography is not so good. We have, with color code, indicated by red where a strong, relevant question was asked which was designed to cause a response and the guilt of the individual was later confirmed. We have asked at each of these two locations, where the green color code is, a question designed to stimulate the innocent person, later verified. He should not respond, in this particular case to both of these questions. So, we have the green color code as an indication that a question designed to cause a person that is innocent to respond regarding the target issue and the red designed to produce a response within the individual that is later confirmed guilty. The question formulation must be proper. It must be ideal in order to set the charts up in this manner. Here, also, is the basis applying the color code to the John Reid system. They have a control question which, in this particular case, we call a probable lie question. Something about the earlier portion of the individual's life that we feel steers clear of the actual area and avoids the time element of the particular current incident that is involved. Here, we have each beat of the pulse all the way through from the beginning to the end of the chart slide which represents about 80 seconds of time. This 80 seconds of time embraces three questions. Here, by a series of lines going up and down we have represented a relative change in blood pressure. This is a relative change that is indicated and recorded but not measurable as such. As the series of lines stop going up and down as you see through certain areas of that chart, we then have no emotional impact or no physiological impact regardless of its origin. In making the intercomparison here, we will look to see if the red zone question which is a relevant question produces what appears to be the major response in the overall chart that we see here. We will then look to the opposite category question to see if there is a corresponding lack of response there. In this system there must be a presence of his response in one of the two categories of questions and lack of response in the other and not a lack of response to both to any degree whatsoever. Here you see, sir, and I could ask you where you see an irregularity. By what question do you see the series of lines go up and would you be able to state that, sir? Mr. Moss. Let me ask you: Is this a continuous reading without interruption? Mr. BACKSTER. Yes, it is, sir. Mr. Moss. Starting over here at the first green? Mr. BACKSTER. Yes, sir. Mr. Moss. Continuing to the last green? Mr. BACKSTER. Continuing right on through. Mr. Moss. During this time three questions were asked? Mr. BACKSTER. Yes, sir. Mr. Moss. Were these the beginning three questions? Mr. BACKSTER. No, sir. In this particular case, there were some lead-in questions. Mr. Moss. Are they on this chart? Mr. BACKSTER. No; they are not meant to be on a spot analysis chart. We are training our people to look at one relevant question, to make a separate, independent rating at that time. There are two other tracings that could be read. They are coded. They are mixed in other verified truth and innocent cases and he is given them back without realizing they are not related to this case. Mr. Moss. I can tell you what I can interpret from the chart, that the subject was relaxing gradually as you went along. Mr. BACKSTER. Yes, sir; that would be a good observation. What question was he tense on before he started to relax? Mr. Moss. I don't know. It is gradual progress down so it is relaxing. Mr. BACKSTER. The peak is at this point and the relaxation beyond, which constitutes the relief. This is the question that worried the individual. In fact, he was even relieved when we got on to the relevant question, instead of disturbed. So, here we have a lack of response on the red zone question designed to stimulate the guilty and we have a response on the green zone question designed to stimulate the innocent. In this case, we would give a determination of truthfulness at this isolated location. In 1 chart, we have 6 of these locations; in 2 charts, 12; 3 charts, 18 separate individual evaluations in order to have an opportunity to do exactly this. I will put one more chart on. Mr. Moss. Let me ask you this while you have that chart on. Mr. BACKSTER. I am sorry, sir. I will see if I can back this slide up. Mr. Moss. From a medical standpoint, could you take a reading of a person and get that without asking any questions? Mr. BACKSTER. You would not get the intercomparison of concern or lack of concern. Mr. Moss. Are you certain of that? Mr. BACKSTER. Yes, sir; I am certain of that, sir. A distortion because of medical reasons is a distortion throughout but we know of no medical ailments that will isolate themselves to one color category of questions and not the other. Mr. MEADER. This line indicates only the pulse rate? Mr. BACKSTER. You mean the tracing? Mr. MEADER. Yes. Mr. BACKSTER. Yes, sir. This indicates each and every beat of the pulse and every relevant change in blood pressure of the individual but does not measure the blood pressure. It does measure the pulse rate per unit of time. We have a standard or constant as far as time is concerned. Mr. REUSS. Let us keep this on here, because I don't begin to understand this at all. What do you mean by questions that make the innocent gurgle or whatever it does? Mr. BACKSTER. They don't really gurgle. These are questions that involve earlier-in-life situations. If the man is not telling the truth on the relevant issue, because that is the one that can hurt him immediately as far as his self-preservation is concerned or his wellbeing; if he is not telling the truth to the relevant question the earlierin-life questions become insignificant because they are then remote compared to his immediate problems. But if he is being truthful to the relevant issue question, then he has no concern other than a |