Mrs. SUSIE MERCULIEF. I think every married couple is living in the houses over there, but those families have moved over here, the the houses demolished.

Senator BARTLETT. You mean the houses over there have been demolished?

Mrs. SUSIE MERCULIEF. Yes.

Senator BARTLETT. Were they in good condition?

Mrs. SUSIE MERCULIEF. Yes. Most of them were. Only two of them were pretty old that had to be destroyed

Mrs. SUSIE MERCULIEF. Soon after they left.

Mr. FOSTER. Do you have adequate housing over there?

Mrs. SUSIE MERCULIEF. Oh, yes.

Mr. FOSTER. To the point that

Mrs. SUSIE MERCULIEF. I could have moved to one of those houses that were destroyed, from the one I am living in now because it is very old.

Mr. FOSTER. So the effort is made that when someone does move over here, they will destroy the house over there. Who else

Mrs. SUSIE MERCULIEF. Excuse me, that is another reason, too, they don't like this moving over here. If they want to return to St. George they don't have a house to return to, to live in. It is destroyed as soon as the person leaves. He doesn't come over and try to make up—you know, to find out whether he would like to stay here or go back to St. George again and be hired in the summertime over there.

Mr. FOSTER. This is kind of like the situation was before, when they left and went away for a couple of months and they came back they might not have a house any more.

Mrs. SUSIE MERCULIEF. Yes.

Mr FOSTER. If they move over here they had better be prepared to stay, because they are not going to be able to go back home because there will not be a home?

Mrs. SUSIE MERCULIEF. Yes.

Mr. FOSTER. Is that policy, as you understand it, to destroy every house of anyone who moves from St. George?

Mrs. SUSIE MERCULIEF. I understand they were supposed to destroy two houses every year and two built over here every year, so two families would be moving over, two families each year.

Senator BARTLETT. Let me interrupt you right there. Let's ask the Bureau of Commercial Fisheries if that is the fact.

Who wants to answer that?

Mr. BAKER. That has been the policy in recent years, Mr. Chairman. Senator BARTLETT. Why were the houses destroyed there?

Mr. BAKER. There are a number of houses on St. George, if memory serves, that are exceedingly old; quite a large number of them. I was rather surprised to hear the witness say that she might have, as I understand it, might have moved into a better house at the time one was destroyed. This is difficult to understand. The thought was, however, to hold constant the total number of housing units on the Pribilof Islands, feeling that from the standpoint of the fur seal industry this was adequate or more than adequate to provide housing for the industry people.

That has been the policy, Mr. Chairman.

Senator BARTLETT. The committee doesn't quite understand yet why it is necessary to tear down a house, old as it may be, but still serviceable and usable. Why was that done? Your answer hasn't explained this to me at all. Was it a move to force the people over here and to make them stay here?

Mr. BAKER. No, sir; it was not intended that way at all.

Senator BARTLETT. Who ordered the houses destroyed and why were they destroyed?

Mr. BAKER. Any home that is left on St. George at the time the family moves to St. Paul obviously must be maintained. It cannot just sit idle without deterioration.

If it is maintained-and these are the oldest houses on St. Georgethere is an added expense to the Government.

Senator BARTLETT. What form would this maintenance take? Why would it be so expensive?

Mr. BAKER. My understanding is that the buildings have to be kept heated in order to prevent deterioration through dampness and cold. If this is to be done, it must be done by the Bureau.

To the best of my knowledge there are presently enough houses on St. George to house all the families there.

Senator BARTLETT. You say there are practically enough?
Mr. BAKER. There are enought on St. George, yes.

Senator BARTLETT. As a matter of public policy, since this is Government property, let's say dampness got into the house and it deteriorated a bit, it could still be there standing and it could be utilized with a little refurbishing if a need arose. If it is destroyed, that can't be done.

If a house is destroyed that is newer than the one the witness is living in, for example, it is rather hard to understand that policy.

Mr. BAKER. It is hard to understand that, Mr. Chairman. I do not understand it myself. This doesn't seem at all logical or to serve any good purpose. I am not aware of the reason for this, if this is the

case.

Senator BARTLETT. Thank you.

Pardon me for interrupting.

Mr. FOSTER. The point I think that the witness made was, if I can get back on that, that not only do we have a matter involving the welfare of the houses, but we have also got the welfare of the people, and that there is a phychological reason, there is a feeling that one has when they would move from one island to the other, to see their home destroyed back on the other island, that they had pretty much been committed into that move. It may be to the welfare of the Government to reduce expenses so they don't need to keep up the houses on the island, but in addition to reducing Government costs, this also places a certain phychological burden on the person who just moved; that is, he is trapped in a sense if he wishes to return.

Do you feel that this has had an adverse effect on the people on St. George in terms of their feeling about moving from there to come over here?

Mrs. SUSIE MERCULIEF. Yes, because they may decide they don't want to stay there and might as well go back to St. George again and be laid off for the winter and work 3 months out of the year as he would here.

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Mr. FOSTER. Would the situation be different if you had employment possibilities here, if they knew that if they came over here they had year-round employment, whereas staying there on St. George actually this just wasn't going to be possible, but you did have employment possibilities over here; would they then be more interested in moving and coming over?

Mrs. SUSIE MERCULIEF. I think they would.

Mr. FOSTER. In other words it was partly sentimental because that is where they were born.

Mrs. SUSIE MERCULIEF. It is not

Mr. FOSTER. It is more than that?

Mrs. SUSIE MERCULIEF. It is no offense, but what Father Michael said before, that is one of the things, too, but the main reason is the jobs they were promised which they won't get the year round. If they would stay at St. George and work 3 months out of the year and don't want to leave, it would be the same here, too. You can stay there and work 3 months out of the year as they can here on St. Paul, and still have their home.

Mr. FOSTER. If they had new opportunities, if they had new possibilities of employment, this might change their attitude?

Mrs. SUSIE MERCULIEF. I am sure it would. So many people had very little education and most of them have never been "outside," so they don't know the "outside," and they haven't had any training of any kind, so they are reluctant to move and look for other jobs somewhere else. They have been out of school since they have been in the fourth and fifth grade and feel they can't go back to school at the age of 30 or 40 for training of some kind. By the time they are finished with their training they may work for 10 years or less and be ready to retire.

Mr. FOSTER. I think in the Governor's report they indicated that an estimate had been made that there could be a savings to the Government of something like $200,000 or $250,000 if they is a transfer of everyone from St. George to St. Paul. That is quite a bit of money if it could be obtained.

We heard this afternoon a witness state that the average income for a working man here was something between $2,000 and $3,000 a year. Would you know is that about what the average would be on St. George

Mrs. SUSIE MERCULIEF. That could be for the summer.

Mr. FOSTER. For the summer!

Mrs. SUSI MERCULIER. Yes

Mrs. FOSTER. If he is employed all year round it might be $5,000? Mrs. SUSIE, MERCULIEF. That is right.

Mr. FOSTER. So it might be that if they wanted to accomplish that saring that—

Mrs. SUSIF MERCTLIEF. You mean the Government!

Mr. FOSTER. Yes. That it might be worth quite a bit to have some economic activity over here, economie activity stimulated by the Government over here, if the overall cost of the service to the community would be reduced by a quarter of a million a year. They could do quite a bit here to encourage and give employment and still save money. Mrs. SUSIE MIELIEF. The strings they talk about, suppose everyone decided to move to St. Paul from St. George, and they wouldn't

have to make trips to St. George with the supplies, grocery supplies, and oil and whatever. They would have to buy that much more for St. Paul, if they should all move over, more houses, buy more supplies, groceries, more trucks, maybe. People over there mentioned this, the Commission over there, I think. They would still be spending more if they moved over here.

They would have to buy a larger ship to haul the stuff.

Father LESTENKOF. May I interrupt about destroying the houses? Senator BARTLETT. Will you come forward so we can hear you, please, Father.

Father LESTENKOF. In talking about destroying the houses at St. George and the shortage of houses at St. Paul, last year, not too long ago, sometime in October, I had some problems on my side in trying to see if I could save a family which was talking about separating or divorce because of family troubles, and they have a baby, and for this baby I thought maybe I would come down to the office and talk this thing over to save the family, because losing a family is quite a bit of a loss for the St. Paul community and the village.

I came down and talked this over with Mr. Heime, acting agent here, and he started to tell me all about why they saved the houses here, when people here at St. Paul can't get houses, why should everybody get houses here from St. George. I told him it is a shame to know they are just destroying the houses at St. George when a lot of them are not employed during the wintertime; why can't they go over there and rent those houses which are destroyed and spend a winter and pay for their rents, pay the Government, and come over for the sealing season and do their employment again. I was told they have no houses. I said why can't some of these guys go out where they can get some houses.

They were talking about everybody coming over and have their houses here. I couldn't just figure it out myself.

A man and his wife, maybe to save his future life, if he knows that he can pay for the rent, it doesn't make any difference whether the Government can worry about whether we have the money or not, as long as he had to pay for that rent, when he says he will have to pay for it, they have to believe his word and that he will pay for it, and the Government would gain on that. This way, a lot of them here are living together and have family troubles and the Government is just losing both ways. It is not gaining anything here by building extra quarters for those who need it. Still as now, a lot of them can know and understand and say now they are building a new house for St. George. We just don't know where we are.

To go back to destroying the houses, the word which I get, when Mr. Hurd and his wife-Rose Hurd-are now at St. George-when they went over there this is the word I get from his wife, it is a shame, this was Rose's hometown, now they send him over here to destroy St. George, which I couldn't understand. What is the meaning to it. Finally I started to find out, they have been asking individually certain people, "Are you going to go over to St. Paul?" When the answer is, "No," then they answer back to them, "You just think so.' It seems like it is forcing them to move over this way.

I am not going against anybody for this, but my problems were to see if I could save a man and his wife, and a baby. It is quite a loss

when you lose them just for not having a home or house of their own, and throwing their future life away. We wouldn't want it to happen. When we see it happen to one, it can happen to another because of not having a home.

That is all I have at present. Thank you for calling me.

Senator BARTLETT. Thank you, Father.

Senator BARTLETT. Susie, do you have anything else you want to present?

Mrs. SUSIE MERCULIEF. No.

Senator BARTLETT. Thank you very much.
Anyone else?

STATEMENT OF NIKANDER MERCULIEF, ST. GEORGE ISLAND

Mr. NIKANDER MERCULIEF. I am Nikander Merculief. The people of St. George Island feel they would like to stay at St. George as they feel. What I feel about these people at home on St. George, if they do move over here, they will be just as bad here. They will be just drawing unemployment. If there were some kind of processing starting up here, I am sure the people of St. George would move over here. On the housing deal, like Father just mentioned about these two houses built here, and seeing that the people—and having the people from St. George move over here and take the two houses, from what I hear nobody from St. George will move over here unless there is a volunteer from St. George.

From what I know of the community of St. Paul, the thought, if these new houses are built they would like to have them themselves before we move over here. I am sure the majority of the St. Paul have the same feeling, don't they?

Senator BARTLETT. Have any new houses been built on St. George recently?

Mr. NIKANDER MERCULIEF. The last was about 1957, I believe, or 1956, brick houses with radiant heat.

Mrs. SUSIE MERCULIEF. He is talking about a garage, with a carpenter shop.

Mr. NIKANDER MERCULIEF. No, not recently.

Senator BARTLETT. Are many of the homes built of brick?

Mr. NIKANDER MERCULIEF. Only five, I know, that belong to people over there.

Senator BARTLETT. That are brick?

Mr. NIKANDER MERCULIEF. Brick houses, yes.

Senator BARTLETT. How do they stand up under this climate? Mr. NIKANDER MERCULIEF. They stand pretty good.

Mrs. SUSIE MERCULIEF. They are radiant-heated homes.

Mr. NIKANDER MERCULIEF. In the floors.

Senator BARTLETT. Are those the newest houses there?

Mr. NIKANDER MERCULIEF. Yes.

Mrs. SUSIE MERCULIEF. The new school is also radiant heated.
Mr. NIKANDER MERCULIEF. And a new hospital.

Senator BARTLETT. Do you have a doctor over there?

Mr. NIKANDER MERCULIEF. Not now. We just got a nurse over there.

Senator BARTLETT. What other kinds of houses do you have? Concrete, you said?