Forest Service that even though the forest values are not sufficient to place the construction of that road within a reasonable number of years as a part of the forest-highway program, that there will come a day when that highway will be constructed by the Forest Service, or rather as a part of the Forest Service program, and 100 per cent out of Federal funds.

That brings up the question, then, as to whether we have an emergency that justifies doing it now instead of waiting the 20 or 30 years before it could be reached ordinarily in the forest-highway program. Now, the emergency is in connection with the development of Cooke City, and also in the opening up of a new entrance to the Yellowstone Park. Let us not forget this. I think this will be substantiated by the two gentlemen from Chicago. That there is no forest area in the United States that contains in greater profusion and in greater beauty those elements which make it an ideal area for recreation. The fact that they have been in there a matter of 15 or more years with their cabins, etc. is proof of that.

It is an area that contains lakes surrounded by timber, with meadows and with backgrounds of beautiful mountains. It is now inaccessible except to those who have the wealth to go in and own these summer cabins, or who are in sufficiently good health to take horseback trips in here. It is an immense area. The building of this road through that forest area which is of great recreational value in itself, in addition to the road having the value of making a new entrance into Yellowstone Park would make that marvelous area accessible to the people of the United States, instead of to the few people.

Now, I am a lover of the solitudes, and I can understand the attitude of mind of the two gentlemen from Chicago. They would like to get out away from the machine guns, etc., of Chicago where they can have solitude and where they can rest and get their bearings again to go on with their business the next winter. I can understand that. And they do not want the rattle of the machine guns replaced by the backfire of automobiles. It would keep them nervous the year round if that was done.

But there is a bigger problem in an area of this kind that can be met by a road which does not open up every foot of the great area. It still leaves the necessity of taking pack trains and saddle horses to go back into the interior of it. But it allows people to get close enough into the center of it so that a greater number can get the benefit of such a marvelous country.

They have the idea of just always keeping all of these areas locked up. We must remember that this is a national-forest area, a part of a great national-forest area surrounding the Yellowstone Park, which in itself has been set aside by the Nation and dedicated to the idea of being for ever a recreational area for the people, and that in itself is added reason for allowing some access to the surrounding areas under conditions that will be advantageous to the people generally.

Then in addition to that there is this question of forest values. If it were of as high a forest value as the forests of the western slopes of the Rockies and in the Coast Range Mountains, of course, this road would be constructed from the standpoint of forest protection

only. The fact that its forest value is not as high as that indicates in itself some value is protecting it, because it is the forest which is in that locality of mining development where mining timber is needed, and within an area protected by the Government for a perpetual use and development, not to be locked up, but to be used so far as its

resources go.

The construction of the road from Cooke City to Red Lodge, taking it now from the standpoint of the protection of this forest area, would put at each end of that highway the kind of men who are the best forest-fire fighters in the world, men used to the pick and the shovel in the mines. There are coal mines down at Red Lodge, and there are metal mines up at Cooke City. And there would be no great place within that great forest and recreational area with the construction of this road that could not be very quickly accessible by truck and automobile and men could then be transported by pack train into any part. And there would be an assurance of the perpetuation of it, and there is no assurance at this time because of inaccessibility.

Then the question of hauling. There are two phases of it. You have got to haul in coal as well as haul out minerals. You have your coal mines down at Red Lodge right at the end of the railroad. So that the trucks hauling out from the mines can go back loaded with coal. You have a haul both ways with the shipping of the coal over long distances. So that the question of transportation balances very well any disadvantages that there might be in any other direction. And the five and a half per cent grade, which is the highest grade on this road that is spoken of as coming out over the Great Divide, is not an adverse condition so far as hauling is concerned.

Mr. Shelly called my attention to the fact that there is only 1,300 feet of grade on this highway that is as high as that. None of the rest of it over 5 per cent. And a great deal of it running over easy slopes and mountain sides.

Now, the question of snow. Of course you can not build a highway in the Rocky Mountains anywhere without having to combat snow at certain times of the year. I have seen the streets here in Washington blocked with snow, so far as that is concerned. But it is entirely possible, when roads are being used, to keep them open during a very great portion of the year. Of course if you would stop using them, as is, the case in the Sylvan Pass, it snows full and you are blocked. By the highway engineers, the Bureau of Public Roads, who conducted the survey made this last summer, give us a very fine report on the matter of snow conditions and the possibility of keeping the highway open for traffic.

But there is in addition to that this situation, that if the road down through the Yellowstone Park is more open in the winter than the road the other way, the Park Service has no objection, as I understand it, and as Mr. Albright has told me, to their coming out that way in the winter months if they should prefer. So that the situation is not as bad as it has been presented along those lines.

Now, it is a peculiar situation to me to see the Senators and Repre sentatives of one western State coming before a committee of the House and the Senate and objecting to and opposing a development that will be essential to another western State.

Suppose the delegation from Montana would take the position with regard to the proposed new reclamation projects in Wyoming that the Wyoming delegation is taking with regard to this road. Senator KENDRICK. Will the Congressman permit an interruption? Representative LEAVITT. Yes, indeed.

Senator KENDRICK. I just wanted to say that if Montana will begin and end this road in Montana and stay within the borders of Montana I agree fully with the statement the Congressman has made that it would be inconsistent for the people of Wyoming to object to it.

Representative LEAVITT. Yes.

Senator KENDRICK. But the difficulty is that the Representatives of Montana, as I see it, are too ambitious. They want to continue and proceed with a development in Wyoming that Wyoming does

not want.

Representative LEAVITT. The topography of the country, unfortunately, and the running of the State line, make it necessary to cross the line into Wyoming through an unincorporated section of that State. The road begins and ends in Montana, and it is not costing Wyoming anything from its road funds or its forest funds, or from any source whatever.

Representative WINTER. Will the gentleman yield for a moment? Representative LEAVITT. Indeed.

Representative WINTER. The gentleman will not lay down the proposition that we should support it because it is a western proposition, regardless of cost?

Representative LEVAITT. No more than we would support reclamation projects just because they are out West.

Representative WINTER. You would not do that.

Representative LEAVITT. No.

Representative WINTER. Very well; we are opposing it. but we are not simply here in opposition; we are presenting to the committee an alternative proposition that is so much better, which also is in the West.

Representative LEAVITT. Let me say that you are not stating an alternative proposition. You are presenting a supposed alternative that has been successfully resisted for 30 years, and you are doing it to kill this proposition.

Representative WINTER. Is the gentleman in accord, then, with the Senator from Montana that they are going to now and forever hereafter yield to the dictation of the Park Service?

Representative LEAVITT. It is not a matter of yielding to the Park Service.

Representative WINTER. You have made up your mind that they are going to control the Congress forever?

Representative LEAVITT. That is not a correct statement.

Senator WALSH of Montana. That is not a correct statement.

Representative WINTER. You say that we have not succeeded so far in getting this road?

Representative LEAVITT. NO; and you can not say that, either. Representative WINTER. No; but the inference is that because the park people oppose us that we can not ever succeed.

Representative LEAVITT. NO.

Representative WINTER. If that is not your statement, then there is not any logic in it.

Representative LEAVITT. It has been successfully resisted for a matter of something like 20 or 30 years, and the gentleman himself and the Senator from Wyoming, with all of their ability, have not been able to overcome it. And the situation exists. No effort made to overcome it until another proposal was made, and then immediately the question was raised, "Why not do something else?" The gentleman from Wyoming presented four reasons. He should have put the last one first when he said that it was a question of competition with the Cody entrance, instead of making it fourth. And I do not believe that the fact that one present entrance to a national park is opposed to another ought to be used by a committee of Congress, of either the House or the Senate, as offsetting the need for a development of this kind.

Now, Mr. Chairman, I think the matter has been so fully gone into that I should not take the time of the committee to discuss it further, unless requested.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything further to be said, Senator Walsh?

FURTHER STATEMENT OF HON. THOMAS J. WALSH, A UNITED STATES SENATOR FROM MONTANA

Senator WALSH of Montana. Mr. Chairman, if I might be indulged for a few minutes I should like to be heard. And I want to express in the first place, Mr. Chairman, my appreciation of the attitude taken by both of the Senators from Wyoming that they do not want to see Cooke City bottled up and its great mineral resources remain forever undeveloped. That is very gratifying.

Senator BRATTON. Let me ask you a question, Senator Walsh.
Senator WALSH of Montana. Yes.

Senator BRATTON. Unfortunately I could not attend the hearings. yesterday. Cooke City is in Montana?

Senator WALSH of Montana. Yes.

Senator BRATTON. Red Lodge is in Montana?

Senator WALSH of Montana. Yes.

Senator BRATTON. The road you are proposing is from Cooke City

to Red Lodge?

Senator WALSH of Montana. Yes.

Senator BRATTON. IS Gardiner in Montana also?

Senator WALSH of Montana. Yes.

Senator BRATTON. And is the other alternative a road from Cooke City to Gardiner?

Senator WALSH of Montana. A road from Cooke City to Gardiner through the park, as you will see.

Now, Mr. Chairman, I think the reason for the opposition so much to be regretted on the part of the Representatives from the State of Wyoming and I do not desire to impugn their motives at all—is perfectly

The CHAIRMAN. You can not under rule 19.

Senator WALSH of Montana. No. [Continuing:] Is perfectly apparent from a glance at the map. I wish that I might be able to put this upon the wall so as to show the Senators. I think the chairman has seen this.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I have seen it.

Senator WALSH of Montana. This is the main line of the Northern Pacific Railway Co. indicated on the map. This is the Burlington road that comes up from Kansas City. This runs on here west to the Pacific coast, and the original entrance was by this branch line that came from Livingston to Gardiner.

Senator MCKELLAR. Yes; I remember that.

Senator WALSH of Montana. Later on the west Yellowstone entrance was constructed here, which permitted people coming up on the Union Pacific to go up from Salt Lake City and Ogden on their way to Butte and diverge over there.

Now here is the Cody entrance. You see people coming up on the Burlington from Kansas City and over in that direction, go up here to Billings and down to Cody. You will observe that, Senator McKellar.

Senator McKELLAR. Yes.

Senator WALSH of Montana. And there the road has been constructed to the park and on to the canyon at the lower end of the lake.

Now you will observe that all of the people coming from St. Paul, Duluth, and all those places there, as well as the people coming up on the Burlington, come on this road down here and go to Cody. You will observe now this is the branch coming from Billings, which comes on down here the same as the Cody branch, but to Red Lodge it comes on here, you will observe, and this would be a more direct route into the park than the Cody entrance would. The map clearly shows that.

Senator MCKELLAR. If it comes to here.

Senator WALSH of Montana. If it came to there, exactly. Now here is the end of the railroad, you see, at Red Lodge, and this is the road that is proposed as an entrance to the park. You will observe that people would take that rather than take the Cody road except for the fact that the Cody road offers highly scenic attractions.

Now, the people of Red Lodge understand the situation very well. The people of Cody do not want this entrance, and a delegation went down there to endeavor to appeal to them to withdraw their opposition to the matter, and they will not do it, and that is an explanation, if explanation is needed, of the presence of the representatives from Wyoming here. They do not want that entrance to the park because it will detract, no doubt, from the tourist travel to Cody.

Now I want to say another thing with respect to this matter. Prior to the opening up of that Cody interest the Congress of the United States had resolutely set its face against the expenditure of a dollar for the construction of a road to the park, and the State