The CHAIRMAN. The Chair is entirely willing that any bill on this calendar should be taken by another committee.

Senator GEORGE. I think it might be best for you to give it that direction, because there is some general retirement legislation that might be offered as an amendment. I reserve that right, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Calendar No. 60, S. 3027, introduced by Senator George, to increase the pay of mail carriers in the village delivery

service.

(The bill referred to is as follows:)

[S. 3027, Seventieth Congress, first session]

A BILL To increase the pay of mail carriers in the village delivery service

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That section 10 of the act entitled "An act reclassifying the salaries of postmasters and employees of the Postal Service, readjusting their salaries and compensation on an equitable basis, increasing postal rates to provide for such readjustment, and for other purposes," approved February 28, 1925, as amended, is amended to read as follows:

"SEC. 10. That the pay of carriers in the village delivery service, under such rules and regulations as the Postmaster General may prescribe, shall be from $1,350 to $1,550 per annum. The pay of substitute letter carriers in the village delivery service shall be at the rate of 60 cents per hour."

SEC. 2. This act shall take effect on the date of its approval.

STATEMENT OF HON. WALTER F. GEORGE, A SENATOR OF THE UNITED STATES FROM THE STATE OF GEORGIA

Senator GEORGE. I think there is an adverse report from the Budget Bureau on this, and from the department, but this bill proposes an increase in the pay of village carriers.

You will recall that the minimum salary now for village carriers is $1,150, maximum $1,350. The bill proposes to increase the pay to a minimum of $1,350 and a maximum of $1,550 per annum. I want to call attention to this fact, that while the number constantly changes, there were only 896 village carriers in service as of April 17 of this year. This does not include substitutes or part-time carriers. Normally there are about 1,200 persons affected by this bill if passed. The department estimates that the passage of this bill would involve an additional cost to the service of $229,400 only.

In addition to the increase in the pay of the regular carriers it is proposed to increase the hourly pay of substitute carriers up to 60 cents per hour, and that estimated cost of $229,400 includes, as I understand it, the increase to the regular carriers and the increase to the substitute or part-time carriers.

I call your attention to this fact, Mr. Chairman, and I want to put in one illustrative case. For instance, at Camilla, Ga., a carrier is required to make three deliveries in the business section and two in the residential section daily. The total distance traveled by this village carrier is 171⁄2 miles. His wage, having reached the maximum pay under the present law, is $1,350 per year, less 32 per cent retirement, leaving him an actual monthly salary of $108.56. He of course has to be uniformed; and in order to give the prompt service that is required by the patrons he has to provide some conveyance in this particular case.

The law as it stands provides free village delivery service when the receipts of the office amount to $5,000 per annum; that is, from stamps and envelopes.

The clerks in post offices where the receipts amount to $8,000 per annum come under the civil service and their salaries range from $1,700 to $2,100 per year. The receipts have to reach $12,000 per annum, under existing law, before there is an increase to the village carrier. So that in an office where the receipts amount to as much as $10,000 per year at the present time the carrier is still confined to a maximum of $1,350 a year, less his retirement cost of 31⁄2 per cent, which leaves him a monthly salary of only $108.56.

Senator BROOKAHRT. Your bill contemplates that the salary would be gradually increased more nearly in accordance with the receipts?

Senator GEORGE. No; my bill is not based upon that. It provides for a flat increase of $200 so that the minimum will be $1,350 and the maximum $1,550 per year.

I think there is too great a discrepancy between the pay of the village carrier and the city carrier. I understand, of course, that this was more or less experimental. The legislation itself was somewhat experimental, but I regard it now as a fixture of the service. I do not think it will be departed from, and I think there should be some increase. The increase proposed in this bill is very small.

The CHAIRMAN. The figures as you gave them are as contained in the letter from the Postmaster General, in addition to which he informs us, in the usual language, that the legislation is in conflict with the financial program of the President, which letter will be introduced into the record at this point.

(The letter referred to and submitted by the chairman is as follows:) OFFICE OF THE POSTMASTER GENERAL, Washington, D. C., March 5, 1928.

Hon. GEORGE H. MOSES,

Chairman Committee on Post Offices and Post Roads,

United States Senate.

MY DEAR SENATOR MOSES: With reference to your communication of February 9, 1928, requesting report on the bill (S. 3027) to increase the pay of mail carriers in the village deilvery service, I have to say that I am advised by the Bureau of the Budget that the proposed legislation is in conflict with the financial program of the President.

It is estimated that the increased salaries, if the bill is enacted into law, would involve an additional cost to the service of $229,400.

Very truly yours,

HARRY S. NEW, Postmaster General. STATEMENT OF M. T. FINNAN, SECRETARY NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF LETTER CARRIERS, WASHINGTON, D. C.-Resumed

Mr. FINNAN. The National Association of Letter Carriers at its recent convention indorsed the proposition to provide that village delivery carriers be granted the same pay that city carriers are granted.

Under the present practice a lump sum is appropriated for the pay of the village delivery service, and in 1920 a law was enacted which provided that the entrance salary would be $1,150 with successive increases to $1,250 and $1,350, which latter is the maximum salary.

Under the law city delivery can not be instituted in an office until the gross receipts of that office are at least $10,000 for the preceding fiscal year. The department has in addition to that made a provision that village delivery can not have city delivery substituted for it until the population of the village is 2,500, but in some instances they have made city delivery of village delivery offices when the population was 1,500 and the receipts were $10,000 for the preceding fiscal year.

We respectfully submit to the committee that $1,350, the maximum salary for a village delivery carrier, is not an American wage and that these village carriers should receive more wage. It does not seem to be in keeping with the American system to have such wages paid by this great Government of ours; and I earnestly hope and trust that this committee will report out a bill granting to the village delivery carriers the same salary that the city carriers receive and that the clerks receive.

Senator BROOKHART. How would you like to include the farmers in that?

Mr. FINNAN. I am certainly willing that the farmers should get anything and everything they can. They should get more.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. May I ask on what theory the village carrier was given less than the city carrier?

Mr. STEWART. As has been stated by Senator George, it was an experimental service and has been so treated until quite recently, when I think the department has thoroughly reached the conclusion that it is a service which should be maintained and continued on the present basis.

STATEMENT OF EDWARD J. GAINOR, PRESIDENT NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF LETTER CARRIERS, WASHINGTON, D. C.

Mr. GAINOR. I simply want, Mr. Chairman, to supplement what Mr. Stewart said by stating that this service is now over 10 years of age and it has passed the experimental stage at least 5 years. Νο one would think of abolishing it.

Mr. STEWART. Of course Senator La Follette is entitled to know the difference between the hours of service and the service itself as between the village carrier and the city carrier. I rather think Mr. Finnan will admit that there is some difference there.

Mr. FINNAN. There is considerable difference. One of the principal ones is that the village carriers get hardly any of the benefits which have been accorded by law to the city carriers. For instance, they can be worked any number of hours and receive no extra pay for it as is provided in the law for the city carriers.

Of course in these smaller offices it is put in as a sort of stop-gap, when it was originally tried as an experiment; but I respectfully submit that the maximum of $1,350 is utterly ridiculous and should be increased.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. What are the facts, generally speaking, about the amount of work done by a village carrier as compared with the city carrier?

Mr. STEWART. I have here with me Mr. Spilman, who is in charge of that service and who can answer that question better than anybody else can.

STATEMENT OF WILLIAM R. SPILMAN, OFFICE OF THE FIRST ASSISTANT POSTMASTER GENERAL

Mr. SPILMAN. While, as stated, the 8 and 10 hour laws do not apply to village carriers, in actual practice the department is applying them, and the department is not averse to the requirement that no village carrier work more than 8 hours. However, in any emergency, such as the Christmas season or other heavy mail seasons, he does work overtime. There is no provision of law for paying for that overtime. In many instances in the smaller villages there is not sufficient work to keep him employed every day 8 hours-that is, in the smaller villages. In the larger villages, which have become towns and cities, the work will approximate 8 hours every day of the week.

Adverting to a matter that came up just a moment ago, since I am on my feet let me say that these salaries were fixed lower originally because of the fact that it was anticipated that this service would be largely in the smaller villages where the cost of living and the prices paid for similar work in business would not be as high.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Is it your opinion that the same reason for a differential in the salaries exists to-day?

Mr. SPILMAN. Not in the same degree as it did originally.

Senator GEORGE. These carriers, of course, are required to have uniforms?

Mr. SPILMAN. Yes, sir.

Senator BROOKHART. What is the rate of pay of the city carrier? Mr. SPILMAN. $1,700 to $2,100.

Senator GEORGE. I think they should be more nearly together. I wanted to do something for these village carriers; and I want to call attention to this fact, that in the typical case which I have selected— and it is not an extreme case at all-the carrier travels 171⁄2 miles every day and his net salary, after the retirement cost is deducted, is only $108.56 a month. There is not such a wide difference between the cost in a village where the receipts of the office only amount to $5,000 or between $5,000 and $10,000, and in the larger places. Oftentimes the streets are really not as easily traveled as in the larger places. The carriers work under more disadvantages as well as the possible disadvantage of increased hours of service when occasion requires it.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you state in that typical case of yours the number of hours that that carrier averaged?

Senator GEORGE. No, sir; I did not have the number of hours. I merely had the mileage and the number of deliveries he was required to make in the residential and business sections of the town. It is a small town of about 3,000 people.

Senator BROOKHART. He would hardly make it in less than eight hours.

Senator GEORGE. No.

Mr. SPILMAN. I would like to say that that is an unusual mileage. Senator GEORGE. It may be somewhat unusual.

Senator BROOKHART. Do you know what the average mileage is? Mr. SPILMAN. No; I do not; but that is over the average, because in the city service the average will approximate 14 miles, and, of course, in the smaller villages a man will travel more miles in delivering the same quantity of mail because the houses are set far apart.

Senator BROOKHART. Then I would think that this would be near

the average.

Mr. SPILMAN. The 14 miles in the city service embraces smaller cities as well as larger cities.

Senator GEORGE. Of course, the number of packages of mail is not the same; they are not quite as heavy, but I think the distances will really increase as the size of the village increases.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know what percentage of the village carriers are exclusively employed in the Postal Service?

Mr. SPILMAN. I would not be able to state it in percentage, except to say that a large percentage of them are exclusively so employed. The CHAIRMAN. There is not any considerable percentage of them that have other occupations?

Mr. SPILMAN. No, sir, except the so-called part-time men. In many of these villages there is too much work for one man at eight hours and not enough for two, so we put on a part-time man. He may have some other employment. The regular eight-hour man rarely has other employment. He may have some little side line, but not extensively at all.

Senator GEORGE. Permit me to say on that point that it is difficult for him to have regular employment because he has to adjust his service to incoming mails, and as a matter of fact the hour of delivery is adjusted practically on that basis, and it is quite difficult for him to have any regular employment.

The whole number of carriers, as I stated, is 896. That was the number on April 17. But including part time and substitutes there are only about 1,200 employees, according to the figures in the record.

Mr. FINNAN. Village carriers are employed, as has been said by Mr. Stewart and Mr. Spilman, for eight hours a day. If they work in excess of eight hours there is not extra pay for them. It is the practice of the department not to allow a village carrier in an office unless there is eight hours work. If there is more than eight hours work, as has been stated by Mr. Spilman, they give this man part-time employment, two hours or four hours or six hours. Those men are paid the substitute rate of wages, 50 cents an hour for such part-time employment. There are a number of village delivery offices throughout the country that will have one eight-hour man and another man who works two or four hours a day and receives 50 cents an hour for the time actually worked. So I think it is safe to say that there are very few regular carriers who do not work practically eight hours a day. The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything further to be said on this number? [After a pause.] The next docket number is 69, a bill introduced by Senator La Follette, to provide a shorter workday on Saturday for postal employees.

(The bill is as follows:)

[S. 3281, Seventieth Congress, first session]

A BILL To provide a shorter workday on Saturday for postal employees

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That hereafter when the needs of the service require supervisory employees, special clerks, clerks, and laborers in first and second class post offices, and employees of the motor-vehicle service, and carriers in the City Delivery Service and in the village delivery service, and employees