the scale and all the other books in the other, I am afraid that the fiction would weigh down the other books. That means simply this, that in the case of the fiction you may publish 10,000 copies of the title, but in a scientific work if you get rid of 1,000 copies of the title you are doing very well.

Senator COPELAND. But if a man desires to supply himself with books he has to get those books largely by mail.

Mr. MEYER. Yes, sir.

Senator COPELAND. And every time he gets one of them it means usually a serious book is a big book.

Mr. MEYER. Yes, sir.

Senator COPELAND. So that the rate is higher?

Mr. MEYER. Yes, sir.

Senator COPELAND. And he has to pay in addition to the cost of the book in New York a high postage rate, is that correct?

Mr. MEYER. Yes, sir. There is one further point about publishing that Senator McKellar touched on. He alluded to books published down in Tennessee. I have a very good personal library at my house, but in spite of that I have something like 200 of these little blue books that I get for 10 cents. They do not represent books for which you have to pay a good deal. They are reprints of classics, some before published for hundreds or even thousands of years, and sometimes they do not reprint the complete work. In the case of this classic it happens to be within a very small compass, Bacon's Essays, and that can be comprised within one of these little books, and of course the paper is of poor quality and of poor binding.

Senator COPELAND. And of blurred type.

Mr. MEYER. Yes, sir; they are not good specimens of the bookmaking art, but they are adequate. And I like to stick one of them in my pocket, and that is why I have them, to take with me when traveling, because they give me something that does not add bulk to the material that I am carrying. Now, any publisher probably if he would like to do that could give you for 10 cents a few pages no larger than that book in size. But that is quite a different thing. And when you come to multiply that by 20 you simply have $2. And when you multiply it by 20 you have the ordinary book. They are only fragments, not the complete classics as a rule.

Senator ČOPELAND. Mr. Meyer, suppose a serious-minded man desires to buy books on religious, scientific, and historical subjects, of educational value, he has to buy those by mail.

Mr. MEYER. Yes, sir.

Senator COPELAND. He can not go to a near-by bookstore and get them.

Mr. MEYER. There are not enough bookstores to supply the demand. And in that connection I will say that I was astounded while in England last year to find that they have 20 bookstores to our one. I did not go into even one small town in England that I did not find half a dozen good bookstores.

Senator COPELAND. Is it not true that the better quality of bookstores in this country do not carry such books as we are talking about now?

Mr. MEYER. No; they do not.

Senator COPELAND. So that the only way the reader can get them is to order a book from a bookstore, in which case he will be charged

the price of the book plus postage, or he will have to order the book direct, in which case the cost will be the same.

Mr. MEYER. Certainly.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you certain that the bookstore will not absorb the postage?

Mr. MEYER. They do in a great many instances, and that means that the profits of the bookstore are reduced.

Senator COPELAND. Are there general stores like that in New Hampshire, Mr. Chairman?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Senator MCMASTER. What is the custom as to the local bookstore? You might just find out about that and it would settle the question. The CHAIRMAN. If you go into a bookstore in my town you simply pay the list price.

Senator MCMASTER. Call up one of the local bookstores down town an get the prices there.

Mr. MEYER. I think that I have enough information to say that you would get the book at the list price.

Senator MCMASTER. And would not pay the postage?

Mr. MEYER. Yes, sir.

Senator MCMASTER. And you might get any book that you want? Mr. MEYER. Yes, sir. And again that emphasizes the point I want to make at every moment of this discussion, and that is that the remote man who has no Brentano's or other bookstore near him, can not take advantage of that. The postage matter does not really affect Washington or New York or Philadelphia, but it does most vitally affect men at remote points. He has to pay postage. The publishers can not include postage in their list price, because they do not know what it is-if they send it nearby it may be 10 cents and if they have to send it a great distance it may be 50 cents. In order to make themselves perfectly safe they would have to price the book at the highest postal rate. And that of course would be bad business. It would be better to distribute the cost around so that the man at the remote point simply pays the higher rate. And that is the penalty then for living at a distance from the centers of publication.

The CHAIRMAN. We thank you. Are there any others who wish to be heard in regard to this matter?

Mr. MEYER. May I now gather up these little volumes?

Senator COPELAND. I thought you were going to leave those with the members of the committee?

Mr. MEYER. These are my personal volumes and I should like to have them if I may.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. May I ask specifically whether circulating libraries are adequately taken care of in the bill under discussion without amendment?

Mr. MEYER. That is, the paid circulating library?

Senator LA FOLLETTE. I mean the regular State-aid library. Mr. MEYER. Every book they buy has to pay an increased price. Senator McMASTER. Let us be sure that we understand each other. First, a circulating library sending its books to and from its customers has a special rate in this bill, so that they are not affected in the least by it. But when they buy books of a publisher, when they send in

a buying order, the chances are that they get those books by freight, and then they are not affected.

Mr. MEYER. If it is fiction or school textbooks that is true.

But in the better class of books they do not come under that heading. They are purchased individually and the books are sent by mail. Senator STEIWER. May I impose upon the committee for a question or two?

The CHAIRMAN. Certainly.

Senator STEIWER. In the case of shipments from a central library maintained in some States to county libraries or small units that exist in remote corners of the State, would the House bill we are referring to protect that kind of shipment?

Mr. MEYER. It would to a limited extent in the smaller States. Senator STEIWER. Is it not true that it would double the rate after the first pound so as to increase the cost of the movement?

Mr. MEYER. Yes, sir; and we would like to have a flat rate on all book transportation.

Senator STEIWER. In some States, and the presence here of Senator La Follette reminds me of Wisconsin, there I think you have a very well-developed state-wide library system.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. We have.

Senator STEIWER. Oregon has a similar system, and I think New York has a wonderful system, and I am very much interested that the rate may be favorable as between the central library and the remote library. They do not send out one book at a time, but sack them up and send them out, 20 or 30 pounds, I believe.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me call your attention to the bill as it comes from the House, in that it particularly provides that as to books such as you describe the rate shall be 3 cents for the first pound and 2 cents for each additional pound.

Senator BROOKHART. A flat rate or a zone rate?

The CHAIRMAN. A flat rate for the first, second, and third zones or within a State.

Senator BROOKHART. It is limited to those three zones?

The CHAIRMAN. To the first, second, and third zone, or if the State is big enough to go outside of the last zone and remain within the State this would apply inside the State.

Senator STEIWER. In answer to a suggestion I have received, and I am not advised about this matter, but came to get information, I have received several communications from the governor of my State and the librarian of the Oregon State Library, and

The CHAIRMAN (interposing). How recently?

Senator STEIWER. The last letter is under date of April 10, and received by me on the 16th. Quoting the lines of the last letter it is:

I do hope that you and Senator McNary will fight to get a favorable rate for the libraries, keeping it exactly where it is now for the second zone and reducing it to 2 cents on the first zone, or that you will oppose the bill. It affects the people of Oregon more than any legislation that has been before the Congress in recent years except the land-grant refund.

In the letter from the librarian he says:

The most of the library shipments contain more than one book. book weighs a pound and a half.

parcel.

The average

The service charge of 2 cents is added to each

The CHAIRMAN. All this that you want to get is taken care of here. This letter was written on the basis of the mailing of books under the flat rate and before this provision was added to the bill, when they were sent as fourth-class matter. Then the service charge was added to it. Under this provision, books sent by your library in the State of Oregon will pay this flat rate with no service charge whatever.

Senator STEIWER. Is there any doubling of the rate of the shipment after the first pound?

The CHAIRMAN. No; the first pound is 3 cents and all additional pounds 2 cents.

Senator STEIWER. All right.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. The difference between what they are asking for and this provision is that they ask for a flat rate of 2 cents for the first pound and this is 3 cents.

The CHAIRMAN. It is 22 cents with a minimum charge of 3 cents, with a flat rate for the whole country. At some period I shall put in the Postmaster General's letter for the benefit of the record.

Senator STEIWER. Is the 2 cents eliminated?

The CHAIRMAN. For this service; yes.

Senator STEIWER. Well, I think that is very gratifying. That has been administered as a differential against a service of this kind.

Mr. MEYER. This provision provides an adequate response to a State like California, where the county library system is completely developed. There are very few counties that do not not have a county library. They send out from a central point in the county to any reader in that county books by mail, or by wagon if the amount to be sent warrants. It is the same thing in some other States. Probably eight or nine States have adequate county libraries. But this very thing again brings out that point I have repeatedly stressed to you, that it does not take care of the remote reader who has not access to a county library, with no library facilities anywhere near him. This contact with the county library, or with the State library, serves its own county or State, but it does not take care of the States or the remote individual who has not facilities of that kind near him.

Senator STEIWER. Would the House bill have been adequate before it was redrafted, for a State like California?

Mr. MEYER. Yes; with a flat rate of 21⁄2 cents or a minimum of 3 cents, with a steady increase of weight per pound, is perfectly adequate. But that should not apply to the whole country.

The CHAIRMAN. You are talking about provisions of the Copeland bill.

Mr. MEYER. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Which has never been in the law.

Senator COPELAND. But we hope they will be. Mr. Chairman, there is a representative here from the American Federation of Labor that we should like to have heard, Mr. W. C. Hushing.

STATEMENT OF W. C. HUSHING, LEGISLATIVE REPRESENTATIVE OF THE AMERICAN FEDERATION OF LABOR

Mr. HUSHING. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, we are interested in lower postal rates on books only because we believe it will give the public better educational advantages. We have always stood for equal educational advantages for all. Now, the bill as it comes from the House liberalizes the postal rates to a certain extent, but the provisions of Senator Copeland's bill are more favorable, and it gives these equal educational advantages which we favor. The points of distribution as we see the situation are rather remote from the publishing sections of the country, and if there were a flat rate on books it would give every one an equal advantage, such as we favor.

That is about all that we care to present on this subject unless there are some questions.

The CHAIRMAN. We thank you.

Senator COPELAND. Mrs. Duncan Johnson, of the General Federation of Women's Clubs.

STATEMENT OF MRS. DUNCAN JOHNSON, REPRESENTING THE GENERAL FEDERATION OF WOMEN'S CLUBS

Mrs. JOHNSON. Mr. Chairman, I think it is not necessary to say to the gentlemen of this committee that the General Federation of Women's Clubs is not interested in the profit that may accrue to book publishers. Our support of the principle in legislation which reduces the postal rate on books is a part of our larger program in the interest of the American home. And I should like with your permission to read the resolution which is responsible for my being here this morning in the interest of the federation:

Whereas books are one of the most important influences in maintaing the morale of the American home and their general circulation greatly to be desired; be it Resolved. That the General Federation of Women's Clubs deplores the discrimination against books in the present postal law and urges the desirability of recommending to Congress that books be admitted to the same privileges in the mails that are granted to periodicals and magazines.

A few months ago I had a letter from a group of women who had formed a little club in a remote rural district, and there had been certain State legislation in which they had become interested, and they decided to study the question, but they were baffled because they could not get books. They wrote to me to help them, and in

the letter they said:

We are 100 miles from any public library and it is very difficult for us to get books because of the high postage.

Gentlemen of the committee, I think that is all I have to say. The CHAIRMAN. Were they attempting to borrow books or to buy them?

Mrs. JOHNSON. In that case they were attempting to borrow books from a public library.

Senator MCMASTER. Well, it would not have cost them anything. Mrs. JOHNSON. It would have cost them something.