Senator MCMASTER. I am looking for a small dictionary, to get the definition. Senator STECK. The terms "lottery," and "gambling device" are two different things. Senator SHEPPARD. I understand, but the evil we are attempting to reach is the moral evil involved in spreading among people the idea of getting something for nothing, or getting an exaggerated return for a small contribution. Senator STECK. Let me ask you this question: In some of the exhibits offered here they offer the sale of fixed dice, and marked cards. You would not claim that the bill would prohibit the advertising of unmarked cards or unfixed dice? Senator SHEPPARD. Not at all. I think you are right about that. Senator STECK. And, of course, where they are fixed they are dishonest gambling devices. Senator SHEPPARD. There is a section of the bill which relates to that, applies to that. Senator STECK. Why would it not apply to a roulette wheel if it has not a brake on it? Why would it not come under the bill? Senator SHEPPARD. Because I think it is so well known that a roulette wheel is gambling Senator STECK (interposing). Why not make it apply, if you want to make it include all gambling devices? Senator SHEPPARD. The bill includes both unfair and dishonest gambling devices, and also lottery devices. Senator STECK. A lottery is, in common phrase, at least, entirely distinct from other forms of gambling devices. We all know what lottery is, in general. A lottery is a lottery, and a roulette wheelSenator SHEPPARD (interposing). I used the term "lottery" in the broad sense. Senator STECK. And dice, and a gaming or crap table are gambling devices, but could not be called a lottery in any sense. Senator SHEPPARD. A gift enterprise could not be called a lottery, but it is included in the bill. Senator MCMASTER. I think there is quite a distinction between a lottery and a gambling device. Senator SHEPPARD. I think the bill makes the distinction. Senator MCMASTER. This dictionary here, of course, is a small one and the definition is abbreviated, but it gives the definition of a lottery as the distribution of prizes determined by chance or lot. It is usually in the sense where many people pay in money at the same time to get a definite, or one, price; while a gambling device is such that I can play constantly between myself and the numbers. But a lottery is where, I understand, generally speaking, a number of people buy numbers for the purpose of winning a general prize. Senator SHEPPARD. But it seems to me that the element of gambling is necessarily involved in a lottery. Senator Steck. Oh, yes; there is no question about that. Mr. BELL. But the Louisiana Lottery furnished the guide to a judicial definition of a lottery. Senator STECK. That is where the price is determined by lot. Mr. BELL. Yes; there was a distinction between it and the ordinary gambling device. I just want to close with one sentence, Mr. Chairman. Senator STECK. My question to you is this: You are not interested at all in this bill unless that one phrase applies to what you would call an honest gambling device, one which might be used for gambling, but is not necessarily gambling? Mr. BELL. That is right. Senator FRAZIER. Vending machines. Mr. BELL. Suppose that I was engaged in manufacturing this vending machine [exhibiting picture]. Now there is not a gambling device there at all, unless you put in the magazine-unless you put merchandise in there, and you put in the element of winning. Suppose I had $2,000,000, or any other amount involved in it, and I had mail going all over the country to customers. Now somebody was haled into court and the police destroyed that as a gambling device and they have destroyed one so used-suppose this bill was in force and you are a manufacturer, a purely legitimate manufacturer, you see that under that bill you are liable to be haled into court either at your home or at the destination of your mail, all over the United States, and you are brought under a jurisdiction aimed at dinhonest gamblers. Senator SHEPPARD. Excuse me. Not unless you intended it as such. Mr. BELL. That is true. Senator SHEPPARD. Suppose we inserted, on page 2, in line 3, after the word "intended" the words "by the manufacturer". Mr. BELL. Senator, there is a scienter in the bill now, that they must know it. Senator SHEPPARD. I did not understand you. Mr. BELL. There is a scienter in the last section of the bill. There is a scienter there. They are not afraid of punishment. Senator SHEPPARD. On page 2, line 3, of the bill it might be amended, "or intended by the manufacturers for the conduct of such lottery", etc. The manufacturer can be held liable if one used one of these legitimate machines in an erroneous way. What we are interested in is the source of this gambling device. And I want to call Senator Steck's attention to this language in the bill: and no article, device, or thing designed or intended for the conduct of such lottery, gift enterprise, or scheme, or matter relating thereto; and no unfair, dishonest or cheating gambling article, device, or thing. Senator STECK. You make a distinction there that does not cover, if there is such a thing, as honest gambling devices. Senator SHEPPARD. We do not think that there is. Senator STECK. Then why make the distinction? You have it after your word "or". Senator SHEPPARD. No; I do not think the Senator gets it. The CHAIRMAN. That is the basis of the bill. Senator SHEPPARD. And there are certain machines that give everybody a chance. That is what we refer to as the gambling device that is not dishonest. On the contrary, they take these slot machines and send out these little metal disks to plug up the holes inside so that the people who throw into them do not get any sort of a chance. That is a dishonest device. But I say, as there is no endeavor to fasten liability on the man who manufactures a machine as long as they go into the trade not to be used dishonestly, I think, myself, it would make the bill fairer to insert in line 3, on page 2, the words "by the manufacturer". Mr. BELL. There is a section which uses the word "knowingly," I think. But the trouble is here the question may be on a trial had on the question of what is intent. He is not afraid of getting out, if he is an innocent man at all. But somebody could charge him with knowledge. And these men are in and out, the employees in all these places, and he would possibly be at the mercy of the employees that were going out and losing their jobs. They would say, "Why, he knew that this was being used in this way." My people have no objection to it if the jurisdiction can be stopped, so that it does not subject them to being haled into court guilty or innocent, at all. And if there is a jurisdiction of this kind, a limit to a dishonest and unfair gambling device and gambling people, they certainly do not want to be in that jurisdiction. And so, because every single vending machine, without any exception, can be operated as a gambling device, why, of course, the jurisdiction would attach to them, as they see it. I thank you, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Are there others who wish to make any suggestions? Mr. O. D. JENNINGS. I would like to make just a few suggestions, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Give your name, your address, and your occupation to the reporter. STATEMENT OF O. D. JENNINGS, REPRESENTING O. D. JENNINGS & CO., CHICAGO, ILL. Mr. JENNINGS. My name is O. D. Jennings, 4309 West Lake Street, Chicago, Ill. The CHAIRMAN. And your occupation. Mr. JENNINGS. I am a manufacturer, Mr. Chairman, representing O. D. Jennings & Co. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, it was not my intention-I am not a lawyer, gentlemen; I am a manufacturer, and it was not my intention to speak. It so happens that I manufacture these vending machines and scales. It was not my intention to appear before you at all, except it appears like here lately Chicago is being charged with everything. It is charged now with making all the gambling devices in the world. And Chicago being my home, I felt like I should say something to uphold the honor and integrity of Chicago. Senator MCMASTER. They are going to send the Marines out there now to keep order. Mr. JENNINGS. That is all right, Senator, and I will shoulder a musket and help to clean out some of the disorder. I am going to show you for your own information some things here, gentlemen. The gentlemen that preceded me told you about the institutions that make the gambling devices in Chicago. Now I make many devices known as coin-control devices. There are many coin-control devices. The telephone is a coin-controlled device; the gas meter is a coin-controlled device. There are lockers, that are coin-controlled devices. So the coin-control device, as an industry, is a big industry. I do not happen to own the largest one of the type, but I am going to give you an insight by showing you some pictures of my industry, so that you will get an idea what the industry is. There is a picture of my plant [exhibiting picture]; and there is a picture of my employees [exhibiting picture]. These are pictures of the things that we manufacture [exhibiting pictures]. We sell goods to all the States in the Union. And this is a list of the countries that we sell to, outside of the United States [producing list of countries]. Senator FRAZIER. Do you think this bill, if passed, would affect your business? Mr. JENNINGS. They would apply it to my business, and I would either have to be a bootlegger or go out of business. I could not be a bootlegger, and I should have to get out of business. Senator FRAZIER. How do you figure it would affect you? Mr. JENNINGS. I have followed this bill many years. This bill was up for many years, Senator. Senator Sheppard had it up last year. Senator Deneen, of our State, was the chairman of the committee, I think. I don't believe the post-office people themselves know what they want in connection with this bill. That is my candid opinion. I don't believe the people really and honestly know what they want. And when Colonel Bell was talking about these machines-this machine [exhibiting a picture] is a machine that sells to the children. They talk about school children. Sometimes school children have pennies to spend. That machine is designed to vend out a penny's worth of wholesome merchandise for a child. Senator FRAZIER. If they use it. Mr. JENNINGS. They do use it. But how can the man that manufactured it be responsible if it is not used properly, any more than the man that manufactured this table is responsible if somebody used it for a crap-game table? Senator SHEPPARD. That is the difference between the honest machine and the dishonest machine. Mr. JENNINGS. They made reference to the Liberty Bell machine. We make one bell machine, and it is a Liberty Bell machine [exhibiting picture]. I make this statement, and stand to be corrected if I am wrong, that Liberty Bell machines are not run in any places except the bootlegging joints. I think I should know that; we sell them, and about 20 per cent of our business is bell machines. They are sold in bootlegging places. That is the Liberty Bell business. I have spent my entire life in the coin-controlled machine business. This machine [exhibiting picture], you could not make it a gambling machine. They talk about one hundred and twenty-odd institutions that build them. They name Kale Bros., there at Detroit. They are competitors of mine. Go down there, if you can, and find the dies and the scales. It has been on the shelf 20 years ago. It went out about 20 years ago. When I went into the machine business, it is a fact they did make the disks to go into this machine here [exhibiting picture]. The machine was made by Leo Chandler & Co., at Cincinnati, but they went out of business 35 or 40 years ago. They passed out about 40 years ago. They talk about making disks for these machines. I have been in business since 1897. I don't believe any manufacturer has made a disk to plug up a slot machine since I have been in the business. They realized in the beginning that it was to their advantage to make fair stuff, if you make gambling stuff. Somebody around the place is always going to tell about it if you don't. There is a clerk, or the porter or somebody will tell about it. Senator STECK. Mr. Jennings, is it not ture that there are thousands of these old machines left, and they will operate in one community until it gets too hot for them, and then they move them somewhere else? Mr. JENNINGS. Senator, I don't think there are thousands of them left. There are some. They go into stores, and such places. I would like to say something about this machine here [exhibiting picture]. It is impossible to make this a gambling machine. It is in combination. Any time you see that, you see there has to be a combination here. You could change the percentage on that machine. You could make the machine a larger percentage for the house, but the minute he passes this reward card, this must correspond. The public knows as much about it as you do, and you could have as much success on it as I could have. There couldn't be anybody cheated on that. Senator STECK. That is a gambling machine, but you say it is not a dishonest gambling machine? Mr. JENNINGS. It is not dishonest. That is one out of many. I don't know how many styles we make. That is one style we make. We have made it since the war. Some of our competitors make a machine of that type. I show you the position we are in in connection with that machine, to show you if you are in the foreign trade, or in our own States here, how you operate. Here is practically the same machine here [exhibiting picture]. I came from Cuba in here. I was over there in the interest of this machine here [exhibiting picture]. That machine, although it is a chance machine-I consider it a chance machine. At home it is a chance machine, but abroad, in Cuba, with that device to it, it is a legitimate machine. The Cuban Government has seen it, and we have some thousands of machines over there put in within the last three months back. And you Senator STECK. They get a stick of gum in that? Mr. JENNINGS. They get a 5-cent package of mints. may not have in Cuba certain types of machines, but in Canada we sold several of those [exhibiting picture]. That particular type we have sold, because it is the skill type, and it is so classed as a legitimate machine. The CHAIRMAN. What do you mean by a skill machine? Mr. JENNINGS. This is a plunger here (indicating], and you can stop these reels if you are skillful enough. You could stop these reels on any one that you select. Senator STECK. That is a game of skill, instead of a game of chance? Mr. JENNINGS. We do not build that for here. I just brought that out. I am dwelling on this machine because it represents about 20 per cent of all the machines we make, and 50 or 60 per cent go into foreign countries. So we would not appear here only we have a business to protect. But I would hate like everything to have my |