Mr. COLLINS. Well, the Post Office Department submitted to the Post Office Committee of the House data to the effect that of the full R. P. O. cars there were 83 at that time.

The CHAIRMAN. When was that?

Mr. COLLINS. That was in April, 1926. And in the year 1926 there were 13 additional full R. P. O. all-steel cars put in service, and in 1927 there were 16 of them put in service, so that the total to-day would be 838 plus 3 and plus 16.

The CHAIRMAN. No; we had testimony here on yesterday that onerailroad had received six all-steel cars during the month of January, as I remember.

Mr. COLLINS. Well, these figures are for the fiscal year 1927.
The CHAIRMAN. Oh, they are for the fiscal year?

Mr. COLLINS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. So your figures are as of last June?

Mr. COLLINS. As of June 30, 1927. Since that we have had additional cars added.

The CHAIRMAN. I think I recall that the representative of one railroad testified on yesterday that they had received six all-steel cars during the month of January. Was not that the testimony on yesterday, Mr. Thom?

Mr. THOм. That is my impression.

Mr. COLLINS. I do not question that at all because there are a number of railroads that have contracted for and some cars have already been delivered and are in service during the last few months under this program of the Post Office Department. But as to the exact number since July 1 of last year, I can not give it to you. But we probably have around 900 full steel mail cars in service to-day.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Collins, in connection with the steel equipment for R. P. O. cars, there is the cognate problem which you and I discussed in connection with other legislation, namely, the diminution of train-miles in the runs and the reduction in number of men employed in the Railway Mail Service. That was brought out incidentally in the testimony here on yesterday. Do you think that has any essential bearing on this legislation?

Mr. COLLINS. Well, indirectly it has, I believe. It is true that the mileage of R. P. O. cars has been reduced in recent years. That became noticeable immediately after the change in the basis of compensation for the transportation of the mails. Prior to 1916 the railroads were compensated on a tonnage basis; and in addition to that they were paid a car rental for these full R. P. O. cars, but no rental for anything less than a 40-foot car. Our apartment cars did not call for any rental at that time. When the basis was changed from the tonnage to what we call the space basis, then all these mail cars were on the same basis. They were paid so much per mile according to the size of the car, and we have three sizes, the 15, the 30, and the 60 foot car.

All these cars are hauled by the railroads upon this mileage basis to-day and have been so hauled since 1916. As a result of that the cost of transportation in R. P. O. cars has been reduced and the tendency on the part of the Post Office Department was to hold down cost as much as possible, and what was called the less important classes of mail were withdrawn from distribution in road service 96574-28

and handled in what we call the terminal railway post offices. That reduced the distribution en route, reduced the number of clerks assigned to distribution en route, and of course reduced the number of cars and reduced the size of the cars. The use of many 60-foot cars prior to that time has been reduced to 30-foot cars, and many 30-foot cars to 15-foot cars. The mileage of the 60-foot car is much less to-day than it was about 10 years ago. The mileage of the 30-foot car ranges approximately the same, while the mileage of the 15-foot car has increased considerably. But as a whole the total mileage has been reduced.

That of course has affected the cost of operation compared to what it was prior to that time, because there is no tendency on the part of the Post Office Department to reduce space in these cars, particularly in the apartment run, because they do not pay for the use of that car anyway. They only paid for what was known as the full R. P. O. car and the present situation as regards car mileage is, I believe, due entirly to the space distance as a basis of transportation costs. It reduced the distribution en route of mail. We have fewer clerks assigned to road duty in these cars to-day than we had 12 years ago. That can only be the result of one thing, that there is less mail being distributed en route, and of course the mail is not advanced as well as it was when it was being distributed en route.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you worked out any comparison to show the percentages of casualties under the reduced force now running on trains as compared with the larger force prior to the change in the basis of compensation?

Mr. COLLINS. I have not worked it out in percentages, no; but the percentage of casualties would be much less than it was 10 years ago. We are improving, particularly in these later years, and I assume that that will continue, because that has been the record since about 1912.

Now, casualties do not always indicate the true condition, for sometimes a casualty occurs through no fault of the car. I do not want to take the position that every casualty or death of a clerk is due directly to the car itself, because that would not be so. The casualties listed are casualties of clerks on duty from all causes. There is a small percentage of them due to other causes than what could be laid to the car itself or the action of the railroad company. The Post Office Department has advised me at different times as to the different railroads contracting for new cars; that is, in the last two or three months, and the indications are that the railroads are making an effort now to conform to the new program of the department, and which will eliminate the steel-underframe cars from steel trains within the next two-year period. At least that is the agreement and understanding between the railroads and the Post Office Department at the present time, and they are making that effort according to the evidence I have.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you want to comment on the program of the Post Office Department as set forth in the Postmaster General's order of last summer in connection with this legislation?

Mr. COLLINS. The program set forth in that order of last May, as amended in September, is in line with this movement. It does not go, however, as far as this bill proposes, but it is a movement toward that end. And the Postmaster General is to be commended for his

attitude in that respect. under the present law. any authority to go.

He is doing, as I believe, all that he can do He has gone just as far as the law gives him

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Collins, do you think that this committee is bound in any proposed legislation to consider the cost to the carriers of providing this additional equipment as proposed in this bill?

Mr. COLLINS. Well, I see no reason why some consideration should not be given to that phase of it. I am not disposed to take the attitude that any undue hardship should be imposed on any railroad company. I simply take the attitude that if the railroad companies are able to secure steel equipment for their passenger-train service, which the most of them are doing, that they should also secure steel equipment for the Railway Mail Service; that is, for the railway postal

cars.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, it was testified here on yesterday afternoon that all equipment for passenger, baggage, and mail service now being ordered by all railroads is all steel.

Mr. COLLINS. That is probably true.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, is it not a fair assumption that the same percentage of replacement of older construction with all-steel construction is taking place both in the passenger service and in the baggage, express, and mail service?

Mr. COLLINS. It is my opinion that the proportionate replacement of mail equipment is not up to the replacement of passenger equipment, and for the reason that they are operating to-day many of these steel-underframe cars in all-steel trains. We have them in daily operation. Now, this has been brought about to a certain extent in this way: Years ago our service was expanded-and I want to say for the railroads that a number of them secured all-steel equipment at that time, because it was generally thought that the service would continue to expand. That was done just prior to 1916 that I know of in a number of cases. When in the years just after that time the Post Office Department curtailed the R. P. O. space, and a number of these full R. P. O. steel cars that the railroads had secured prior to that time, were reduced to 30-foot cars. Now, I know of some railroads that continued to operate the 60-foot steel car in lieu of the 30foot apartment car authorized by the Post Office Department. In a way that was unfair to the railroads. They either had to buy new 30-foot apartment cars or rebuild or change their 60-foot cars into 30-foot cars. And that has been done in some cases I believe. But the change in program was not entirely-I will not say fair, but the railroads had those cars, had purchased them in good faith, and then through a change in policy of the Post Office Department the size of cars used was reduced. They had the cars and they had to change them over to 30-foot apartment cars or else continue to operate the 60-foot cars for the 30-foot pay. In later years I think the most of these cars have been changed over to the 30-foot apartment cars, so that gives us a 30-foot steel apartment car, and a number of these additions have been on that account, having been formerly 60-foot cars but changed over to 30-foot cars.

Now, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, if there are any further questions I should be glad to answer them if I can.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you a statement there that you wish to make a part of the record?

Mr. COLLINS. Yes; Mr. Chairman, I have some figures and data here that I think would be useful to the committee in the consideration of this matter, and I should like to furnish it.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, that may be made a part of the record, and be added as an appendix.

Mr. COLLINS. All right, Mr. Chairman, I now furnish it to the shorthand reporter.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything further that you wish to say? Mr. COLLINS. No; I do not care to take up any more of the committee's time.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, we are very much obliged to you. Are there any further witnesses in reference to this bill? [A pause, without response.] All right, the transcript will be made ready by the shorthand reporter as soon as possible, and printed copies of the hearing will be available for the use of the committee.

Mr. THOм. Mr. Chairman, in view of the reference to injuries in 1927 made by Mr. Collins, Mr. Mack would like to put in some details of the character of the cars in which those injuries occurred. The CHAIRMAN. All right, he may furnish that information for the record.

Mг. THOм. He can furnish it right here now.
The CHAIRMAN. You may do so.

Mr. MACK. Mr. Collins referred to injuries, while we referred only to fatalities. I have the actual figures furnished by the Post Office Department for 1927, and they are as follows: Five in wooden cars; 17 in reinforced-steel cars; 144 in steel cars; and 30 in steel-underframe cars. It tells the story that on the heavy fast lines where the steel cars are in operation they get the brunt of the accidents. The injuries in the wood and reinforced steel-underframe cars are minor, chiefly from switching, where a clerk may be knocked around and hurt his elbow or his foot, or strike his head against something, or something of that sort. But they are not in the type of train accidents. I think there would be only one that would be considered a train-accident injury, but the program of the Postmaster General, in which we are acquiescing, will replace what steel-underframe cars may still be in these main-line trains, as I testified on yesterday when I showed the number of cars under order for delivery in 1928.

Mr. SCHARDT. Mr. Chairman, might I say just one additional word?

The CHAIRMAN. Certainly.

Mr. SCHARDT. Senator McMaster asked me on yesterday when I was testifying as to the decline in passenger-train revenue, what the decline in mail revenue was, if any. I did not have the figures available at the time, but I should like to answer for his information and for the record to-day, that the Southern system as a whole there was a decline of 1.44 per cent in 1927 as compared with 1926.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything further? [A pause, without response.] Very well, the committee will stand adjourned on this subject, and will meet at 2 o'clock when the lottery bill will be under consideration.

STATEMENT OF RAILWAY MAIL ASSOCIATION, BY W. M. COLLINS, PRESIDENT

[Statement submitted by W. M. Collins, president Railway Mail Association, on S. 2107] The construction and operation of railway post-office cars is obviously of more interest to railway postal clerks than to any other group of citizens. While the car is owned and operated by the railroad company it is a government workshop and under government control. Prior to 1910 the major portion of railroad passenger train equipment was of wooden construction though steel equipment was coming into use in the passenger equipment. The railway post-office cars were of the ordinary wooden type of construction. These cars are operated in the forward part of the train, usually adjacent to the locomotive, with the result, in the event of a wreck, that the mail car becomes a buffer between the heavier locomotive and the entire weight of the balance of the train. The usual effect, in case of a wreck, was a demolished mail car in which clerks were either killed, burned, or scalded to death. The early history of the service bears out such statement for in 1904 there were 18 clerks killed in these wrecks of wooden cars. The worst year that we have any record of is that of 1910 when 27 clerks were killed on duty, 98 seriously injured and 617 slightly injured. Efforts have been made to compile this data from the annual reports of the Postmaster General, but those reports do not give this information for certain years. The data, complete as possible, follows:

5. Number of railway postal clerks killed and injured while on duty each year since 1905, and type of car in which such fatalities and injuries occurred

Clerks Clerks Clerks Clerks Clerks Clerks Clerks Clerks Clerks Clerks killed injured killed injured killed injured killed injured killed injured

No record of type of cars in which clerks were killed or injured from 1905 to 1911.

An analysis of above table discloses the fact that there was a considerable decrease in fatalities and injuries immediately after the railroad companies secured and began using some steel railway post-office cars. The Pennsylvania and the Erie systems did have some steel mail cars prior to the passage of what is known as the first "steel-car law" or the act of March 4, 1911.