Furthermore we feel that it would be a hardship to adopt a law under these circumstances to compel us to purchase all steel cars for this character of service and that there is nothing in past experience to indicate it is necessary to the safety of the very few railway postal clerks in that territory, the postal cars being similar in construction to the passenger cars on these same trains. Senator MCKELLAR. How many miles of road have you altogether? Mr. WEIGEL. Well, altogether, something like 2,500 miles. Senator MCKELLAR. And you have steel cars on all your through lines? Mr. WEIGEL. Yes, sir. Senator STECK. You say that on your narrow-gauge lines your passenger equipment is of necessity wooden construction? Mr. WEIGEL. Yes; on account of weight. Senator STECK. Purely on account of weight? Mr. WEIGEL. Yes, sir; on account of our maximum grades and curvatures. (Witness excused.) Mr. THOM. I will now ask Mr. A. B. Lawson, assistant engineer of passenger equipment, Baltimore & Ohio Railroad, to explain the different types of postal cars. STATEMENT OF A. B. LAWSON, ASSISTANT ENGINEER OF PASSENGER EQUIPMENT, BALTIMORE & OHIO RAILROAD Mr. LAWSON. Mr. Chairman and Senators, I will try to define the difference between wood reinforced and steel underframe cars. I believe that is the question before us now. A wood reinforced car is known as a car having the end reinforced by plates; that is, the end posts. In addition to that, the doorpost, which would be known as the post adjacent to the door opening, is reinforced by an additional I-beam, channel, or track rail substantially tied to the header, and the end sill is also reinforced by steel plate. The CHAIRMAN. The end door? Mr. LAWSON. The end reinforcement, which is known as the end of the car. In addition to that, the underframe is plated, the center sills and the side sill, every end sill and undersill, by one-half by 7 to 8 inches width plates substantially bolted to the present wood sills. Senator MCKELLAR. When was that system of reinforcing the wood cars adopted? After this law was passed? Mr. LAWSON. No; that has been in force since June 1, 1904. Senator MCMASTER. That is the ordinary wooden car that we have been speaking of? Mr. LAWSON. The wooden car reinforced. Senator MCMASTER. The wooden cars mentioned are just plain wood? Mr. LAWSON. Yes; there is a plain wood car. Then there are reinforced cars which I have just described. Senator MCKELLAR. Have you any figures as to how many of those reinforced cars there are now? Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; Mr. Mack could probably give you that. Mr. MACK. I did give that evidence, Senator. Senator MCKELLAR. I am sorry I missed that. Mr. LAWSON. The steel underframe car has the end reinforcements as I have described for the wood reinforced car. In addition to that it has the entire steel underframe, not a wooden underframe, reinforced, which I have just described. Senator McKELLAR. That is all steel? Mr. LAWSON. A full steel underframe equal in strength to an allsteel car. The underframe structure of the car is of steel. The CHAIRMAN. That is where the impact comes in case of accident? Mr. LAWSON. Yes; of course there are different forms of this reinforcement, all being equal in strength, whether it is I-beam, channel, or track rail. I believe that describes it in a general way. Senator MCMASTER. The steel car, of course, is all steel? Mr. LAWSON. All steel, as being purchased at the present time. Senator McKELLAR. Just as the wooden cars are all wood? Mr. LAWSON. They have some minor differences, of course. Mr. MACK. If I may say to the Senator at that point, there are only about 130 of those wooden cars left throughout the whole country. Senator MCKELLAR. They are all on branch lines? Mr. MACK. Mostly on short lines; some on branch lines. Senator STECK. I understand you to say they are building no more of them? I think I am Mr. LAWSON. They have not built any in 10 years. safe in saying that all replacements are steel replacements. Mr. MACK. Passenger equipment, baggage equipment-that has been so for some years. (Witness excused.) Mr. THOм. I will next call Mr. S. A. Stockerd, general superintendent of transportation, Atlantic Coast Line. STATEMENT OF S. A. STOCKERD, GENERAL SUPERINTENDENT OF TRANSPORTATION, ATLANTIC COAST LINE RAILROAD Mr. STOCKERD. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, the Atlantic Coast Line owns 100 mail cars of which 52 are all-steel; 13 are steel underframe; 27 are steel reinforced and 8 wooden construction. All of the heavy through trains are equipped with steel cars. Such wooden cars as are in service are almost exclusively on branch line runs, on slow schedule, where the traffic is light and the possibility of accident is remote. The CHAIRMAN. The average run is how much? What is the length of the run? Mr. STOCKERD. Probably 75 to 100 miles. All of the operations conform to the requirements of the Post Office Department. We have made steady progress in acquiring steel equipment, and as to coaches, considering the decline in passenger traffic, we have probably overdeveloped along that line. Senator MCKELLAR. What about accidents during that time? Have you had any on your line? Mr. STOCKERD. We have had some accidents; yes. Senator MCKELLAR. Do you remember how many postal employees have been killed or injured in any given time, 10 or 15 years? Mr. STOCKERD. I do not have those figures with me. I am sorry. They were included in Mr. Mack's figures. Mr. MACK. Those figures are in the record, Senator. Senator MCMASTER. The total of the figures is in the record. Mr. STOCKERD. I would like to get the figure in mind, Senator. There has not been a clerk killed in a wooden or steel reinforced car since 1921. There were only 10 clerks killed throughout the entire country in that time, and 8 of them were in steel cars; and that indicates that those accidents occur on the heavy fast trains and very often steel equipment. Senator MCKELLAR. And one of them was where a bridge caved in? Mr. STOCKERD. Yes, sir; and one was a dining car which was dynamited. Senator MCKELLAR. Those figures are very enlightening and very encouraging. Mr. STOCKERD. They are indeed, sir. The passenger revenues of the Atlantic Coast Line for the year 1926 were $21,263,679. In 1927 they were $14,956,902, a decrease of $6,306,777, or 29.7 per cent. Senator MCKELLAR. What was your increase in freight earnings during the same time? Mr. STOCKERD. The decrease for those two years in freight and passenger revenues was $7,000,000. Senator STECK. That might very well be explained at least in part by the change in the conditions down in Florida? Mr. STOCKERD. That probably had something to do with it; yes. The passenger earnings are the lowest, however, in seven years. Senator MCKELLAR. Is that true of your freight earnings also? Mr. STOCKERD. They are just about the lowest ebb we have had in a number of years, right now. We are operating 156 local passenger trains none of which at this time is earning as much as $1 per train-mile. Of these 156 trains 123 are earning less than 50 cents per train-mile; 81 of these trains are earning less than 25 cents per train-mile. Since October, 1926, we have withdrawn 2,576 local passenger train-miles daily or 940,240 train-miles per year, and of these 156 trains there are many that we will withdraw just as quickly as we can cut them off or can get the consent of the various State commissions. Senator MCKELLAR. That is not caused by the fact that the law requires steel cars to be built, though, is it? is Mr. STOCKERD. No. The point I am bringing up, though, Senator, Senator MCKELLAR. This would put an additional burden on you? Mr. STOCKERD. It would put this burden on; yes. But the time is coming when these trains have got to be taken off. The CHAIRMAN. They would have equipment for which there would be no use. Mr. STOCKERD. The passenger traffic has gone and the express traffic has gone. We are operating these trains for a little express traffic and mail. People use automobiles instead of trains. If we should be required to provide ourselves with steel cars, in my judgment within two or three years time at the outside we will have this service withdrawn and have these steel cars on our hands. That is the reason I was bringing out those figures, to show you just the situation that the carriers are facing with local trains and what a serious matter it would be if we should be required to invest on the Atlantic Coast Line something over a million dollars in new equipment and retire the equipment we now have on these branch lines with the conviction on my part that within two or three years time the cars would be lying idle. Senator STECK. That would be a good argument to use to the State commissions in withdrawing service on your lines. Mr. STOCKERD. The commissions realize that the conditions exist, but when we try to withdraw a train we have some complaints from the local people. They want the mail and the express. But so far as riding the trains, that is a thing of the past. If something happens, like bad weather, they will use the passenger cars instead of their own automobiles, but it is a foul weather proposition with them. I think Mr. Mack has covered all the other features, Mr. Thom. That is about all I have to say. The CHAIRMAN. The committee is very much obliged to you. (Witness excused.) Mr. THOм. I will next introduce Mr. N. J. Van Schoyck, manager mail and express traffic, Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Paul & Pacific. STATEMENT OF N. J. VAN SCHOYCK, MANAGER, MAIL AND EXPRESS TRAFFIC, CHICAGO, MILWAUKEE, ST. PAUL & PACIFIC RAILWAY CO. Mr. VAN SCHOYCK. Mr. Chairman and Senators, I am just going to try to show what this would mean to our system. We have all of our full R. P. O. car lines covered with steel cars. We have 22 steel apartment cars, 44 steel underframe apartment cars and 40 wood cars. Senator FRAZIER. You mean, those are in service now? Mr. VAN SCHOYCK. Yes. Not quite all, because we have some in reserve. We have got a program to meet the requirements of the Post Office Department circular, and when that program is carried out we will have 30 steel cars, 44 steel underframe and 30 wooden cars. Mr. MACK. May I suggest, in order to correct the record, that your wooden cars are reinforced cars? Mr. VAN SCHOYCK. That is right. They are steel reinforced cars. To meet the provisions of this bill would cost our railroad in the neighborhood of a million and a half dollars to a million eight hundred thousand dollars to provide steel cars. In addition to that we would have to scrap a number of cars, and that would cost a great deal of money, somewhere in the neighborhood of half a million dollars. Senator MCMASTER. May I ask a general question here of this witness or any other witness? Since the law of 1912 have there been any wooden cars replaced by wooden cars? Mr. MACK. I can answer that question, Senator. No, sir. Perhaps I might make a little clearer this point if it is desired. The act that Senator McKellar refers to has been complied with for 10 years, but that statute did not apply to the apartment mail cars. As my testimony shows, we purchased since that time 1,690 steel mail apartment cars and we have those on all the main line trains throughout the country, with the exception of a few which the Postmaster General has provided for in his order 5438, and are those cars which are now being replaced. Approximately 290 I think will be placed in service during this present year. Senator MCMASTER. But outside of the class of cars to which the law applied there had been no replacement of wooden cars? Mr. MACK. None whatever. Senator MCMASTER. I presume that is from the general construction standpoint? Mr. MACK. Yes, sir. Senator MCKELLAR. I would like to ask this general question of the witness or some other gentleman here who can answer it. When these steel cars are constructed as mail cars can they be used for any other purpose? Mr. VAN SCHAICK. Not without having all the interior fittings taken out. Senator MCKELLAR. That would not be an expensive matter, would it, if they were steel cars? Mr. VAN SCHAICK. Not so expensive, but even then the doors in a mail car are not sufficiently wide to properly take care of other traffic. Senator MCKELLAR. Let me ask you about these cars that are reinforced with steel. Could they be used for any other purpose? You said you would have to scrap them. Mr. VAN SCHOYCK. We would have no use for them. We have nearly enough baggage car equipment to take care of our needs. Senator MCKELLAR. They could be used as baggage cars, could they not, very easily? Mr. VAN SCHOYCK. Only by tearing out the interior fittings and changing the doors, which is quite an expensive operation; and they would not be of sufficient length, some of them, to be used as baggage cars generally. The railroads are getting 70-foot baggage cars these days, and these are shorter cars. Thirty-eight, or practically all of our steel reinforced cars, are in branch line service, generally in two or three car trains. We have 24 steel underframe cars in such service. Only 8 steel underframe cars are in the heavier trains, and these will be replaced by steel cars in line with the Post Office Department's order. Senator MCKELLAR. May I ask this question for general information? Does the Pullman Co. build wooden Pullman cars any longer? Mr. VAN SCHOYCK. I do not believe they do. In fact, I am quite sure they do not. Mr. MACK. That applies to construction of all character on railroads, whether Pullman or short lines or anything else. Senator MCKELLAR. Then let me ask this further question in view of that. Is the change from wooden cars to steel cars that is going on in all lines farther behind in mail cars than it is in other lines, or is it about the same or is it greater? Mr. MACK. Usually it is greater. Mail car construction has always been of a very high character. When we built wooden cars we built |