Mr. CHAPMAN. An express messenger.

One instance, Mr. Chairman, we have had in handling our grievance cases with the American Railway Express Co. was where an express messenger was required to take the pouch from the train where it arrived at the terminal to the post office. But after he arrived at the terminal he was instructed to deliver this mail at the terminal at the post office after he arrived at the terminal, which was possibly two or three blocks away from the terminal of the railroad. We asked for extra compensation for added duties from the American Railway Express Co., but it was denied. The employee, of course, acted as he was instructed to do by his officers, but he received no compensation at all for that extra service that he was forced to render, and it is not in line with his regular duties as a messenger on the railroad for the American Railway Express Co.

Senator DILL. Have you some records there of the various roads and the amount of mail handled?

Mr. CHAPMAN. Yes; I am coming to that right now, Senator
Senator DILL. All right.

Mr. CHAPMAN. Now, as to the amount of mail that is handled by these messengers in these express and baggage cars. On the Fort Worth & Denver Railroad on trains leaving Dallas, from Fort Worth to Amarillo from June 20, 1925, to January 1, 1926, the messengers on that run handled 26,359 sacks of mail.'

Senator PHIPPS. Well, suppose they handle 26,359 sacks of express matter instead, what would have been the difference?

Mr. CHAPMAN. But this is in addition to their regular express and baggage duties.

Senator PHIPPS. I understand that, but what I am trying to get at, if you please, is some indication of the distinction between the work incurred in handling mail matter that comes in sacks, and that which is necessary in handling express matter of equal weight and volume.

Mr. CHAPMAN. There isn't any distinction, Senator.
Senator PHIPPS. That is what I thought.

Mr. CHAPMAN. There isn't any distinction between a package of mail sent by United States postal authorities and a package sent by the American Railway Express, but the men are paid to handle express matter, and they are not paid to handle United States mail.

Senator PHIPPS. Well, I do not see why if the man is paid so much for his services in an express and baggage car, why he is not being paid if part of the contents of that car happens to be postal matter. Why is he not paid for handling the postal matter?

Mr. BADLEY. May I ask a question?

Senator PHIPPS. Yes. If you can, I would like to have an answer to that.

Mr. BADLEY. Suppose then that the Post Office Department would throw all the mail on these messengers and baggagemen, would not that nullify the law of the rate of pay for handling mail? The law has fixed the price of rate of pay for men who handle United States mail. Now, by subletting or farming or some other process, this work is gradually being given to other employees at a lesser rate of pay. In the end it could be that there would be no railway mail

clerks if all this work was thrown on the railroad messenger and baggage man.

Senator PHIPPS. Well, the difference, as I understand it, lies in the fact that the postal employees handle the individual packages of mail. They must classify them. They must show the routings. The closed-pouch mail is an entirely different matter, as I see it.

Mr. BADLEY. A railway postal clerk also handles the closed pouches. Senator PHIPPS. He may at times, that is true.

Senator DILL. Well, he does all the time on his mail car, of course. Senator PHIPPS. Yes, on his mail car, of course.

Senator DILL. Of course, if I may make this suggestion, you have men handling mail who have no responsibility to the Government whatsoever, who are not in any way connected with the Government, not in the employ of the Government, continuously handling this mail. That I think is one difference.

Mr. CHAPMAN. In the handling of packages, Mr. Chairman, the express messengers handles the parcel post package that is not sacked also; due possibly to the size and the way the package is made up it is unable to be sacked. But in any event he handles the package. Senator PHIPPS. But those packages are comparable to the express package.

Mr. CHAPMAN. Just the same, except that the Post Office Department is carrying it, and the express messenger is handling it.

On the Wabash Railroad, for instance, for a period of less than four months these men handled 7,610 sacks of mail and 1,116 packages of parcel post. Now, where there is not a railway mail clerk assigned to the train the express messenger has got to handle the closed pouch mail. The messengers, as we see it, men who are joined in service as train baggagemen and express msesengers, are employed by the American Railway Express, and by the different railroads of the country to handle their baggage and to handle the express matter that may be offered to the railroad company or to the express company. But we feel that this handling of the mail is something that has been added to the duties of the express men and to the baggagemen; it is something of a burden that the men are under; they have no way of obtaining any relief. The matter was submitted to the various managers of the express companies, the two of them in the United States, and to the railway companies, but they seemed to all evade the responsibility, and the condition is getting so that the railroad companies and the Post Office Department are gradually increasing this burden of handling the mail on these express messengers until it is practically reaching a breaking point to the messenger himself.

Senator PHIPPS. Have any of the express messengers resigned from the service on account of this extra work?

Mr. CHAPMAN. Why, I could not say, Senator, I have no knowledge.

Mr. BADLEY. I had one man resign, Charles Nye, running out of San Francisco a couple of years ago, sir.

Senator PHIPPS. Did he give as his reason that it was on account of the added duties by reason of this postal matter that he was compelled to take care of?

Mr. BADLEY. Yes, sir; the added duties. The man was advanced in years, and he could not perform the work, because not only of the

increased amount of work, but it is the increased speed. The work has got to be done fast.

Mr. CHAPMAN. If there is any holdup as to the train being detained at a station on account of mail having to be unloaded, the postal clerk does not receive the blame for it; it is the express messenger who receives the blame, and he has to get those sacks of mail running around 200 pounds-he has to unload that mail out of that train in a certain time that that train lays at that station, and if not he receives a demerit for it anyhow.

Senator PHIPPS. Are the express messengers furnished with an assistant in all cases?

Mr. CHAPMAN. Not in all cases; no, sir.

Senator PHIPPS. But where you run two or three full cars you do have an assistant?

Mr. CHAPMAN. Not always. In some cases he has a helper. For instance, on Mr. Williams's route, I think he has a helper. In those cases I cited where they took the man away to put the mail into stacks it is the duty of the R. P. O. clerk.

Now, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen

Senator PHIPPS (interposing). Just a moment, before you leave that subject. In the cases where a delay results to trains and it is charged that it is because the express messenger did not have the packages loaded or did not have them off at the proper time, are there any penalties imposed?

Mr. CHAPMAN. There used to be, but I do not believe there are now, except it is a matter of record with his service record with the

company.

Mr. BADLEY. He gets a letter from the express company and it is a sort of reprimand.

Senator BLEASE. Do you have much complaint by people not getting their mail promptly?

Mr. CHAPMAN. Not much that I know of, Senator.

Senator BLEASE. There is a good deal in my part of the country. Mr. BADLEY. I think Mr. Williams showed there was complaint in that part of the country.

Senator PHIPPS. Have you anything further?

Mr. CHAPMAN. Just this, Mr. Chairman, we would like to submit these figures. They will not burden the record much. It is a comparison of the number of sacks handled on the different railroadson seven railroads in the southwestern part of the country.

The CHAIRMAN. In putting this stuff into the record, if all this printed matter in these forms is to be included, it will make a good deal. Why can you not get that into a little more concise shape? Mr. CHAPMAN. You want me to reduce it down?

Senator PHIPPS. I think you could make a concise and comparative statement that would be very good for the record. Here is, for instance, a letter that I do not think you want to have reprinted. I think you can make a heading there for each of the railroads and put that in shape for us so that it will not burden the record to the extent that no one will want to look over it.

Mr. CHAPMAN. Yes; I understand, Senator.

Senator PHIPPS. If you put that in attractive form I think we can have it printed for you.

Mr. CHAPMAN. Yes, sir.

There is another point I would like to bring out, and that is the 50 per cent clause in that proposed billSenator PHIPPS (interposing). Yes.

Mr. CHAPMAN. It is 50 per cent of the revenue that the railroad company gets for handling this mail; it is not an added burden or expense to the Government. The Government is not asked to pay anything. The messengers are asking to be compensated by the railroad company of a certain proportion of the money that they get for handling it. These men perform the service and they think that they are entitled to it.

Senator PHIPPS. Have you any idea what proportion of the compensation the express company receives has to go to the railroad company for hauling the stuff?

Mr. CHAPMAN. That the express company receives from the railroad company?

Senator PHIPPS. The other way about. What does the express company have to pay the railroad company for handling the car? Mr. CHAPMAN. I don't know whether the express company gets a single penny, or

Senator PHIPPS (interposing). In other words, the compensation which the express company receives from the Government for handling this postal matter is not all velvet to the express company. Mr. CHAPMAN. I don't know whether the express company even gets anything for it, Senator.

Senator PHIPPS. It must.

Mr. CHAPMAN. I think it all goes to the railroad company, and we are asking for 50 per cent of the revenue that the Government pays to the railroads for handling this, for handling the mail, by the men who are on another corporation's pay roll.

Senator PHIPPS. Have you any idea how much that would amount to in a year's time?

Mr. CHAPMAN. No, sir.

Senator PHIPPS. The Post Office Department tells us it would amount to $4,600,000 a year.

Senator DILL. Is not that the amount, Senator, that it would cost the Post Office Department? This provides for extra postal clerks. It does not provide for any change in the rate of pay for the railroads. Senator PHIPPS. No.

Senator DILL. That is all extra post clerk cost.

Senator PHIPPS. It provides

That the Postmaster General shall place at least one employee of the railway post office service in all baggage cars, express cars, and express-baggage cars of any railroad company in which more than 7 feet of space are rented

and so forth.

Senator DILL. The rate of pay for the railroads is not changed, but that would come out of the railroad itself.

Mr. CHAPMAN. Even under that clause, Mr. Chairman, where the Post Office Department says that it would cost approximately $4,000,– 000 for the placing of these men on the Post Office Service cars, possibly it is not necessary to put postal men in there, but it surely should be necessary to put sufficient men in the cars to handle this parcel-post mail. I am not entirely agreeable as to the question of putting purely Railway Mail Service men in the cars as much as it is

putting men in the cars to handle the sack mail that is on these

routes.

Senator BLEASE. Let me ask you a question, please, sir; You say that the men who handle this mail do not get any extra pay? Mr. CHAPMAN. They do not get anything at all.

Senator BLEASE. Now, does the Government pay the railroad for hauling that mail?

Mr. CHAPMAN. Yes; they do.

Senator BLEASE. How come the express company does not pay? Mr. CHAPMAN. We have not been able to determine it yet, Senator, how the contract is made between the Government and the railroad and then the American Railway Express Co. is made to handle this mail paid to the railroad company and nobody else.

Senator BLEASE. Is there not some deal between the express company and the railroad?

Mr. CHAPMAN. There must be.

Senator BLEASE. Can you not find that out?

Mr. CHAPMAN. I do not known except that all contracts with common carriers should be filed with the Interstate Commerce Commission.

Senator BLEASE. It seems to me that is an important point if the railroad company is to haul express, and this messenger is the express messenger, and he is performing his duty in handling the express. Mr. CHAPMAN. Yes, sir.

Senator BLEASE. But if this is United States mail and the Government is paying the railroads independent of the express rates to handle this mail, it seems to me then it comes under your proposition. He is taking it from a different angle, because it is not express under the contracts or the conditions with the express company to handle. Mr. CHAPMAN. We have not been able to determine that, Senator. Senator BLEASE. In other words, who is responsible for the loss. if important mail should be lost?

Mr. CHAPMAN. The Government.

Senator BLEASE. Is the Government responsible, or the express company?

Mr. CHAPMAN. Oh, no; the express company simply furnishes the employee to handle this stuff, and its responsibility ends there. Senator BLEASE. Then he ought to be paid more for doing it. Mr. CHAPMAN. Yes; and we are asking that he paid 50 per cent of the contract price the railroad gets from the Government for handling the mail.

Senator BLEASE. I know where it absolutely destroyed our mail service. They put it on the mail service, and the man kicks the sack off, and we get the mail whenever we can. I live in a town, and it takes, from the town I live in to the town 12 miles off-where the sack is kicked off-I do not get my mail for 24 hours afterwards. I know that to be true, because I have had that experience myself.

Mr. CHAPMAN. You take a train messenger for the American Railway Express Co. that has his safe and his valuable shipments in his car, his prime interest is to protect his valuable shipment in the car; that is his prime interest, to protect the valuable shipment and naturally it is the handling of the mail which they have orders to give preference to, but for his own protection he takes care of that

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