to get people to violate the law and then come around two weeks later and say to them, "It will cost you $250 for playing that piece and $150 for every additional performance."

Mr. BLOOM. Suppose they do not do that?

Mr. NEWTON. I know they do do it.

Mr. BLOOM. Well, you made a statement in the other matter, but let us be fair. Suppose they do not do that. There is no harm done.

Mr. NEWTON. My argument, then, so far as that is concerned, of course, falls absolutely flat, and I will say this: If there is not any instance of that kind that can be brought to the attention of the committee, then the facts have been most grossly misrepresented to me, and it was upon those facts that I have introduced this bill.

Mr. BLOOM. You have no objection to the authors and composers joining together to protect their interests?

Mr. NEWTON. I have no objection to any group joining together to protect their interests if in doing so they show due regard for the rights of the general public.

Mr. BLOOM. The same as the motion-picture owners.

Mr. NEWTON. Yes; but I object to them using the power of joining together to oppress anybody else.

Mr. REID of Illinois. You object to them using the United States laws to do it?

Mr. NEWTON. Yes. So much for the movie owner.

Now, to show you the lengths to which this association has gone, I am going to make this statement: We have in the rural communities agents, farm bureau associations, we have granges. On motoring across the country here one runs into innumerable buildings here and there, scattered throughout the communities, where the grange building has been erected where farmers meet there to discuss their problems and have some social life. That ought to be encouraged. It is to encourage the people of this country to engage in a business of that kind, and in gathering together they ought to be permitted to play the music that they have purchased in the stores of the land, and they ought to be permitted to do so without paying any additional tribute to any person under the sun.

Mr. BLOOM. Don't you know that this association does not ask any pay of any educational affair or church affair?

Mr. NEWTON. I know that is a statement of theirs.

Mr. BLOOM. Do you not know that they can not do it under the act itself?N

Mr. BLOOM. I know that they do, and notwithstanding you state it, I know you are honest, but they have done a lot of things that were not intended under the law. Let me say this, a grange for example holding a little social, for example, in a country community. The daughter of one of the members is playing a cornet or piano solo, and they charge 10, 15, or 20 cents admission to the social to pay the expenses of the little gathering, get a little money into the treasury of this cooperative institution. Churches do the same thing. Mr. REID of Illinois. They have to pay their income tax, do they not?

Mr. NEWTON. I have never heard of them paying an income tax. Mr. BLOOM. The law specifies you can not charge for any educational, religious, or other association like that.

Mr. NEWTON. All right. Mr. Thompson (this is my authority), who is the head master of the grange, and I think he is well known here on Capitol Hill from his connection with that association, has told me that grangers in the State of Maine have held their socials with 10 and 15 cent admission where this thing occurred, where they were playing copyrighted music, and they were notified to come across and pay in $250 for the performance. It is true that it is in the law that that is not to be done, never was intended that it should be done, but the fact that they have done it only illustrates the lengths to which this association has gone in order to lay tribute upon various semi-public agencies in the communities.

Now, I am wondering if there is any doubt whatever but what that was done in the State of Maine.

A VOICE. It was done in Wisconsin, at Milwaukee.

Mr. NEWTON. Is there any representative here of the publishers and composers' association that questions that?

Many VOICES. Yes, yes.

Mr. NEWTON. Let me understand it, that the publishers' association are willing to come here and go on record and say that is not a fact.

Mr. BLOOM. There might be some other qualification attached to it. They might have been notified several times not to play. They might have been notified to become a member of the association, and they ignored those notices and continued to play, then you can't blame the association for protecting themselves.

Mr. NEWTON. I do not want any qualification by anyone without a full understanding.

Mr. E. C. MILLS. What is it?

Mr. NEWTON. My question is: Does the authors and publishers association deny here that they have not called upon various granges in the country to pay this license fee or penalty for not having a license for playing copyrighted music?

Mr. MILLS. The American Society of Composers, Authors, and Publishers, which is the correct title of the organization, has never demanded payment for the public performance of copyrighted music unless the music was being performed for the purpose of profits, and it would be a sufficient defense for anyone upon whom they made a demand of that nature to merely recite or show that the performance was not a performance for profit, and if it was not the society would have no right to press its demands.

May I supplement that by saying if Mr. Thompson is present he indicate to you what I say; and if not, a telegram to him will bring a quick response that upon bringing the complaint to the tention of the society the society very promptly took measures to relieve the situation of any of the granges.

Mr. NEWTON. Then you do admit that they have done it?

Mr. MILLS. No; it is not intended as an admission, and it is not an admission.

Mr. NEWTON. Do you contend, or have you contended, that the payment of a fee at a social of 10, 15, or 20 cents would bring that into the profits scale, and that they would have to have a license?

Mr. MILLS. It depends a good deal on what you describe as a social. If you intend to describe as a social a motion-picture per

formance to which the general public is invited and not just for the grange, but a motion-picture performance by the grange to which the public is welcome and invited and admission is charged, I imagine that has been construed for purposes of profits and a demand has been made, but not for a farmer's daughter playing a cornet or a piano or something of that kind.

Mr. NATHAN BURKAN. I wish to state that the law specifically states that no performance given for any charity or any educational. or any religious or noncommercial purpose is within the control of the copyright proprietor. They are absolutely exempted under the law. The burden of the proof is upon the claimant to show that the performance was given for a commercial profit. If it was shown that it was for educational or religious or charitable uses, that is a defense to the license. And I will say further that at no time has this association ever exacted or given notice to any organization that has rendered performances only for charitable, educational, or religious purposes. But where a person operates a business for purely profitable purposes he ought not to be permitted to get off by using this music without paying something to the person who created it and made it possible for him to have the music.

Mr. NEWTON. It is just what I say, that this organization has paid no attention whatever to the spirit of the law and have levied assessments upon granges. I have here a letter from the American Society of Composers, Authors, and Publishers, 811 Tremont Building, Boston, Mass., dated November 7, 1923, addressed to The Grange, Lewiston, Me., which reads as follows:

GENTLEMEN: Notice has been given you that the public performance in your establishment of copyrighted songs and other musical numbers of the members of this society without a license constitutes an infringement of the copyright law.

Final notice is hereby given you that on and after November 12, 1923, we shall institute proceedings against you for each infringement of the works of the members of this society to recover damages at the rate of not less than $250 for every infringing performance of each musical composition, in accordance with a decision of the Supreme Court of the United States rendered March 3 1919.

You will also find inclosed an application for license, upon the basis of which declaration a license contract will be issued for your establishment; if no license is secured, then you are hereby notified to prohibit the rendition upon your premises of any works of the members of this society.

Should you desire any further information in the matter than has been contained in the literature which we have sent you, you may secure the same by communicating with this office.

Yours very truly,

AMERICAN SOCIETY OF COMPOSERS, AUTHORS, AND PUBLISHERS, By A. B. HUXLEY, Assistant District Manager.

I remind you that this thing has so grown, and the possibilities of exacting tribute have become so great that they can not even conduct it from one office at New York, but go to work and have their district offices throughout the country for it. Now, that is the notice that came to the grange.

Mr. BLOOM. This says that after November 11-this letter was written November 7. They said if you' want to continue to use the music of this association after November 11 you must sign this application. It does not say that they are going to sue them, or anything, does it?

Mr. NEWTON. Now, I have read the letter, and the letter speaks for itself, and I will submit it to the interpretation of any member of the committee as to whether there is a demand for $250, etc. Mr. BLOOM. For any further infringements, Mr. Newton. Let us be fair.

Mr. NEWTON. What I want to do is to take away the power of these people to do a thing of that kind.

Mr. BLOOM. I know what you want to do. You want to fix it so everybody can use the compositions of these fellows, the creations of those brains, for nothing.

Mr. NEWTON. Upon the payment for the sheet music.

Mr. BLOOM. Suppose they do not buy the sheet music? Suppose Maggie Mahoney is playing it from ear?

Mr. NEWTON. Then do not let her do it, if they do it for public performances.

Now, here is another letter, it is dated Elliot, Me., November 15, 1923, and reads as follows:

Worthy Master W. J. THOMPSON.

DEAR SIR: The John F. Hill Grange, No. 393, of Elliot, Me., wished me to make a copy of a letter that has been sent to it and to ask you what they shall do about it. They do not understand it. To-day I received another one saying notice had been sent, and this one reads:

"Final notice is hereby given you that on and after November 20, 1923, we shall institute proceedings against you for each infringement of the works of the members of this society to recover damages at the rate of not less than $250 for every infringing performance of each musical composition, in accordance with a decision of the Supreme Court of the United States rendered March 3, 1919."

Will you please let me know what your opinion concerning this is and what you advise us to do? Please let us know at your earliest convenience. I have written them a letter telling them I will bring it before the next meeting, November 26.

Thanking you in advance,

Sincerely yours,

Mrs. MABEL H. TWOMBLY, Secretary John F. Hill Grange, No. 393.

Mr. BLOOM. If they continued to infringe.

Mr. NEWTON. I beg your pardon. It says that unless there is a reply, not less than $250, etc. It says, furthermore, "please let me know what your opinion is concerning this and what you advise us to do. I have written them a letter telling them I would bring it before the next meeting."

Mr. Cook. Do I understand you to say that the present law gives the association the power to levy that penalty?

Mr. NEWTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. Cook. What changes are you proposing in this law?

Mr. NEWTON. It limits the right that the "copyright control shall not extend to public performances of musical compositions, where such performance is made from printed or written sheets, or by reproducing devices issued under the authority of the owner of the copyright, or by use of the radio or telephone, or the radio receiving sets, or both or all of them, and no additional charges or fees shall be made by any owner of a copyright, or by his assignee or licensee, because that or any other musical composition is being furnished by, or for use by, radio, or because any person or corporation is engaged in using or furnishing musical compositions by radio, and

that the right to use musical compositions shall not be refused to any person because such person is furnishing musical performances for or by radio."

Mr. Cook. After they had sold it?

Mr. NEWTON. Yes.

Mr. PERKINS. It is about 10 or 12 minutes until 12 o'clock, and I would like to find the wishes of the committee about continuing the hearing. We are going to take up, as I understand, this morning the amendment to the Constitution on the child labor proposition, and there will be six hours of general debate on it. There are gentlemen here from a distance, and, I presume, under expense. They desire to be heard.

Mr. REID of Illinois. Why can not we go ahead to-night?

Mr. COHEN. So far as that is concerned, we will limit it to just one or two short statements.

Mr. LANHAM. I move that we meet at 8 o'clock to-night and continue this hearing, and I should like to make this additional part of the motion, with all due deference to Mr. Newton, because he is here where we can hear him at any time, that the hearing to-night be devoted to the gentlemen who are here from elsewhere.

Mr. REID of Illinois. I move that when the committee adjourns at noon that it adjourn until 7 o'clock this evening, and that further time on this bill be limited to four hours, two hours for and two hours against it.

(Without action on either of the foregoing motions, at 12 o'clock noon the committee took a recess until 7 o'clock p. m. this date.)

EVENING SESSION

(Mr. Lampert presiding.)

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order.

STATEMENT OF MR. SYDNEY S. COHEN, NEW YORK CITY

Mr. COHEN. I am here representing the motion-picture owners of America. Gentlemen of the committee, I am pleased to represent before your committee in this hearing on bills proposing amendments to the copyright laws the motion-picture owners of America, a national body comprised of theater owners from every State in the Union. All of the theater owners of the United States are not in our organization, but I know all entertain the same feeling as we do in this relation, and the representatives of the other theater owners, too, are here to join us in asking for relief from the unintended use that is being made of the copyright law.

I have prepared a brief on this subject that I will submit to the committee, and I have also prepared a separate copy for each member of this committee. I want to take as little time as possible in presenting these facts to you gentlemen. I want to suggest to you this definite amendment:

That when any author or composer, or his or her administrator, executor, or assigns, shall publish or cause to be published for sale to the public, copies of any copyrighted musical composition or song, the sale of any such copy shall be free from further contribution by the holder thereof to the author or composer, or his administrators, executors, or assigns, in case of public performances for profit.