Mr. TREZZA. It will depend on whatever the Federal allowance is the year we have the Conference, in 1979, for Washington, D.C.; that will be the figure. Right now I think it is $39 a day for per diem.

Mr. EARLY. In your backup data, you say the largest single part of the cost is $288,000 for travel and per diem of the delegates. If you divide that by 500 delegates, it is $1,200 per delegate.

Mr. TREZZA. That would be for transportation, hotel and per diem. Mr. EARLY. So the cost is $1,200 per delegate?

Mr. TREZZA. I don't believe that is correct. What we are doing is estimating what transportation and per diem will be in 1979, and we are going to have to live with that figure.

Mr. NATCHER. On page 8 of the justifications, you are budgeting $15 per day per delegate for food. This is above and beyond their per diem payment, I believe. Why cannot the delegates pay for the meals out of their per diem payments?

Mr. MANOLATOS. One of the problems you have in a conference like that is delegate control. They are going to be meeting in the morning, there is going to be a luncheon session, an afternoon and an evening session. Most likely there will be speakers and business will be conducted. It is more convenient, instead of giving the money to them and have them give it back to the Conference, to have the Conference make the entire arrangements for the food. It is control to make sure we do not lose them.

To try to get 500 people fed during lunchtime and get them back to work again is next to impossible unless you control the situation.

Mrs. MOORE. I have been a delegate to the Commissioner of Education's conference on teaching citizenship in the public schools. That was the way that conference was handled. We did not lose anybody. We worked from early morning right straight through.

If we had allowed the delegates to go off on their own, they would have lost much of the conference.

Mr. NATCHER. How much are you budgeting for the travel expense of each delegate? Just the travel expense figure.

Mr. TREZZA. We have an estimate of $350, I think, in the budget. Mr. MANOLATOS. Approximately $350. This is slightly higher than the Government average. The reason is that the Government averages are computed between the major regional cities, whereas these delegates will be coming from every place in the United States. They will incur higher travel expenses coming to Washington.

Mrs. MOORE. It will average out.

Mr. MANOLATOS. From California normally it is computed from San Franicsco where the regional offices are, but they can leave from any place in the State of California, so they will be running into additional

expenses.

Mr. BURKHARDT. I must say I am troubled by Congressman Early's point that if you take that number and divide it into the amount, it comes out to $1,200 per delegate. That sounds too high to me.

I wonder if there is not some explanation of this?

Mr. EARLY. This is just on your statement.

Mr. BURKHARDT. I understand, and that is why I am puzzled. I cannot understand how we arrived at $1,200.

Mr. NATCHER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. FLOOD. Mr. Patten?

NEED FOR CONFERENCE

Mr. PATTEN. How would you feel if the subcommittee voted to omit this money from this budget and saved some $3.5 million?

Mr. TREZZA. Say that again, please. If you did not support the $3.5 million?

Mr. PATTEN. If we do not appropriate the money.

Mr. TREZZA. Personally, I would be very upset and shocked because it is so important. We have worked for this conference since 1957. The whole library community has been working at it, Congress has already expressed itself by overwhelmingly voting for it. The President signed it, Mr. Carter is on record in favor of it.

Mr. MOORE. There is a very strong statement by President Carter. Mr. TREZZA. I would be very surprised and shocked.

Mr. PATTEN. I would agree. The people paid $135 billion last year for health services. What do the American people pay for library services and books?

Mr. TREZZA. Do you mean nationwide?

Mr. PATTEN. What impact does the related work have?

Mr. TREZZA. Do you mean how much are people spending nationwide for all kinds of library services?

Mr. PATTEN. Yes; that which adds to the quality of living.

Mr. TREZZA. If you take local, State, and Federal funds, everything, it comes out to $3.5 billion.

Mr. PATTEN. How about private publishers, what are their sales?

Mr. TREZZA. I do not have a figure. It would be a guess. I know they publish just in the English language something like 25,000 books a year; that does not count all the reports and scientific information. That would be a tremendous figure.

Mr. PATTEN. Somebody just published a book on William Faulkner's life, his private letters. I did not like to see it. It left me with a mixed feeling.

Mr. BURKHARDT. He would not have wanted it either.

Mrs. MOORE. No.

Mr. BURKHARDT. He specifically told his widow-to-be not to do it. Mr. PATTEN. Well, it was nice to have you here. I hope your conference is a success.

Mr. TREZZA. Thank you.

Mr. PATTEN. And I hope it will do for America what all of us always hoped it would do.

Mrs. MOORE. May I make a final statement for just a second?

It was in 1957 when I was the president of the American Library Trustees Association that the first suggestion for this conference came about. A man by the name of Channing Bete from Greenfield, Mass., suggested a White House conference be planned. I have been working on that since that time.

So now for 20 years I have been hoping we could have this conference and working on it. I want to know, I guess after this committee acts and the Senate, I will know whether I have been tilting at windmills.

To quote one of your favorite authors, "to be or not to be."

Mr. FLOOD. When that situation arises we shall endeavor to deal with it.

Mr. O'Brien?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I share Mr. Patten's view, just to let you know where O'Brien stands.

CONFERENCE TIMETABLE

In connection with that, are you satisfied we are on track and it will occur in 1979 ?

I am getting mail from my librarians and they are concerned about it for the very reasons you explained so well.

So

you are satisfied that we are all set for 1979?

Mrs. MOORE. I think we are. The quicker the action we could get from the committee, the better.

If we could start May 1 it would be better. Certainly we must start by June 1 if we are going to meet the deadline.

Mr. TREZZA. This schedule is based on the starting date of no later than June 1. We have planned it on that basis, hoping that the appropriation process would be finished and the Treasury would certify funds so that we could start.

Mr. BURKHARDT. As a matter of interest, Mr. Chairman, which committee would decide about changing the date from the authorization we now have which specified 1978?

Mr. FLOOD. Education and Labor.

Mr. BURKARDT. We would go to them.

Mr. O'BRIEN. Is this a year-long affair?

Mr. TREZZA. The State conference will start this fall and all 58 of them will run between this fall and the early months of 1979, that entire period, all over the country.

Mr. O'BRIEN. Then the national Conference?

Mr. TREZZA. Will be in September of that year.

Mr. BURKHARDT. Very end of that fiscal year.

Mrs. MOORE. Then 6 months to wind it down, write the report and get the recommendations together.

FEDERAL FUNDING NEEDED

Mr. O'BRIEN. I will try to fit my Appropriations Committee membership hat back on, leaning toward Mr. Early, and his factual remarks.

You have budgeted $278,000 for transportation or travel for the national conference. I thought you mentioned that the States were to supply about 35 percent of expenses. That works out to something like $500,000 for 500 people.

Mr. TREZZA. No. Two different things.

The States are going to supply part of the funds to run their State Conferences and we are supplying part of the funds for their State Conferences. We supply all of the funds for the national conference. Mr. O'BRIEN. I see, for the whole shebang?

Mr. TREZZA. Right.

Mr. O'BRIEN. You must have some reason for it. Is it absolutely necessary that the Federal Government foot the bill?

Mr. TREZZA. It is the tradition. If you are going to get the people who are busy, the people you really want, if you cannot somehow support their coming, you just do not get them.

Mr. O'BRIEN. And the local communities apparently will not do it? Mr. TREZZA. Well, they do not have the funds.

Mr. O'BRIEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. FLOOD. Mr. Early?

Mr. EARLY. As former chairman of ways and means in Massachusetts, I was extremly amenable to library spending, and I still am. The numbers do not bother me at all. I am just concerned that we are spending our limited moneys on libraries in the best possible way.

You suggest you are going to give grants, which is 35 percent of the money, 35 percent of the $3.5 million to the individual States, of which all States must participate with at least 50-50 percent funding. Mr. TREZZA. Right.

Mr. EARLY. I really feel that is going in the right direction; I have no qualms about that.

CONFERENCE EXPENSES

However, I would like more of a clarification on your backup notes on page 8. You suggest that travel is going to be on the average of $350 per delegate, for 500 delegates. You suggest $288,000 for travel. Now, how does that average out to $350?

Mr. MANOLATOS. I think it is the way you read it.

The 500 delegates will be receiving a per diem for the 5 days they are there. The travel will be $350 on the average.

Mr. EARLY. So the answer to my question is $45 a day?

Mr. MANOLATOs. That is the present $39 rate increased by roughly 6 percent between now and the time the conference occurs.

There are no firm figures?

Mr. EARLY. I do not think that includes the rent for the hotel. You have an item down further for the hotel. I want to get an answer to that one also, but why do we have to spend $100,000 at a hotel that we are going to put 500 people in?

I am not being critical. Why are we going to spend $100,000 for rental, communications, and utilities of a hotel when we are putting 500 delegates there? If you hold a convention at the Shoreham

Mr. MANOLATOS. One of the problems we are having from strictly the logistics point of view is that generally there are only three or four major hotels in Washington that can handle 500 people, plus additional observers, staff and everything else.

One of the major hotels will be torn down by then. There is an overload situation flowing to the remaining hotels. I am not sure that we can use a single hotel. We will probably have to go into two hotels, which means when you do that, you do not use their entire facilities or have them available.

Some portion of this $100,000, not necessarily the whole amount, I can supply it, will have to be rented.

Mr. EARLY. You have not set a date for the conference yet?

Mr. TREZZA. The exact dates are not. It is supposed to be the last week in September. We had to do that to nail down the hotel space. We will get some meeting space as part of the deal for the rooms, some we will have to pay for.

Part of the problem is planning this far ahead, you do not know what the rates are going to be, what they will give you free and what they will charge for; it is hard to judge.

You have to use your best estimate based on experience.

Mr. EARLY. I can appreciate that; I just do not accept the numbers. Libraries do not have any money to provide the real function they perform in their State which is so important, which contributes so much to our society. We are going to hold this event. You have something scheduled.

I do not think the members could see paying $100,000 to rent space when they are all staying at the hotel. I do not understand how you could not get into one hotel. If you are in two hotels, they should supply the space for nothing.

Mr. TREZZA. There is more to that; rent, communications, utilities, as well as hotel space.

Mr. EARLY. What else is it?

Mr. TREZZA. Telephone, running the staff.

Mr. EARLY. I certainly think you have to restrict something. You know we are in priority spending here, as far as $3.5 million.

Mr. MOORE. Maybe we have not done a good job on explaining the budget, that is possible. I do not mean the total amount. I mean maybe we have not correctly broken-out the items.

Mr. EARLY. I do not like to be critical in my questioning because I think you do a super job. It is so important, I think, but to look down the line when we know we are going to be forced to cut back the budget, where do they look first to cut?

Libraries. If some opponent of libraries can say "Wait a minute, they did not have a convention, they had a real wing-dinger down here," these are the highest figures per delegate that I have seen to fund any of the conventions since I have been here. So if you will doublecheck the numbers and submit a letter to the chairman or the staff, that you are satisfied that they are not excessive, it would be fine. Mr. TREZZA. Incidentally, I did my arithmetic.

For each delegate it is $575 for the transportation and the per diem, times 500; it comes out to $287,500. That is where that figure comes from.

Mr. EARLY. $288,000 is for what?

Mr. TREZZA. Five hundred delegates at $585 apiece for transportation, room and board, altogether.

Mr. BURKHARDT. Five days at $45 a day plus an average of $350 travel.

Mr. TREZZA. That makes it 575.

Mr. BURKHARDT. $575 per delegate for the 5-day conference, getting them to it, staying there and going back home.

Mr. EARLY. Wait a minute; you are saying that the $45 per day is the

Mr. BURKHARDT. To pay their hotel expenses.

Mr. MANOLATOS. That is based on the $39 present per diem, increased

6 percent per year.

Mr. EARLY. Will that include the $15 you talked to Mr. Natcher about for food?

Mr. MANOLATOS. No.

Mr. BURKHARDT. The $15 a day is what you are going to lay out in order to serve them lunch and dinner.

Mr. MANOLATOs. Right. Instead of including it in the per diem. we put it down as a separate line item.