strengths of that commitment, our late and distinguished colleague, Congressman John Fogarty, the chairman of the Appropriations Subcommittee that handled this matter, put the money back in the appropriations bill. Though I think there were some other issues in that campaign, I am glad to say that we did elect one of those fellows Governor and he did write Indiana back into the Union.

I am distressed to say-and this is just a footnote that our present Governor seems hellbent on taking us out of the Union again in the last several weeks, but that is another matter.

Mr. Elliott, a spokesman for the administration came before our subcommittee yesterday to speak on this bill and I don't think I misrepresent his position when I say it is roughly the following: That he was against the proposed Commission being an independent agency. He wanted it located within the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare. He was opposed to the members of the Commission being appointed by the President and recommended that they be appointed by the Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare. He was against the Commission having any other than advisory functions; that is to say, he was opposed to the Commission promoting research and development and providing technical assistance and he favored confining the scope of activities of the proposed Commission to Federal library programs. Finally, he believed that we should stipulate representatives of various Federal agencies that deal with libraries as members of the Commission.

Aside from those reservations, he was hopeful that the bill that we had was a strong bill and was anxious to strengthen the Commission by his recommendations.

I wonder if you have any comment on the position taken yesterday? Mr. ELLIOTT. Mr. Chairman, I have been out for 4 or 5 years, but in my judgment in order for a commission to be real important and to draw the kind of people that it ought to have serving on it, it needs to a Presidential commission. It needs to be appointed by the President. That does give it an added standing or stature in the country which any other type of commission does not have when it is appointed by any lesser official than the President of the United States.

This Commission can be very important. And my thought is that it ought to be totally independent. I think I would even be against the provision, if I knew any solution to it otherwise, of housing it in HEW. It cht to be independent. It ought to be totally independent. It shouldn't be in the position to have to go down to one of the departments begging for funds with which to operate or for office space in which to carry on its work. It ought to be independent and have the opportunity of building for itself such respect as it deserves to have.

I think I have pretty well indicated that I don't agree with most of the points that-and I am not sure that I got them all-the chairman mentioned.

Mr. BRADEMAS. I would just observe that I would hope that among the activities the Commission that we are talking about would give at least a little attention to the information problem of the Members of Congress.

When you talk about there being a multiplication by a factor of 3 of information in the next 10 years, that appalls me when I con

sider the paper that comes into our offices now. I don't know if you are aware of the fact, but the executive branch of the Government, by the middle of this year, will have at its disposal 4,000 computers at an annual cost of $2 billion. The Congress of the United States has three computers; one over in the Senate used for speeding the delivery of inside mail; another in the House used chiefly for payroll purposes; and another in the Legislative Reference Service in the Library of Congress to report on the status of bills.

I hope that in time somebody will come along with some specifics, and some of us in Congress, in both sides of the aisle, are working on this matter now to give a little attention to this problem, because I think it has a direct bearing on the separation of powers constitutional system.

As it is now, with the Executive having a virtual monopoly of operative access to intelligence and information, we are at an immense disadvantage if one agrees, as I suppose most of us do, that information is power.

One other final short question. The Librarian of Congress, Mr. Mumford, suggested yesterday an amendment to the bill which would have the effect of allowing the Commission to receive private gifts, grants and bequests. Do you have any comment on that suggestion?

Mr. ELLIOTT. I think that would be perfectly in order, that the Commission be able to receive such bequests or gifts. I don't think there will be very much activity in that field, but it ought to have that power, I think.

Mr. BRADEMAS. One of the most industrious members of the Committee on Education and Labor is one who has a particular deep interest in the legislation before us. I would like to ask Mr. Steiger to put any questions he may have to you.

Mr. STEIGER. I have no questions. It is a pleasure to see a man who served in this body with such distinction and has made a contribution in his work on the Commission.

I have read your testimony and I appreciate your comments.

I can only say, as I was coming down the corridor, my antenna went out when I started to hear the chairman's comments about what Mr. Venn had said before in his testimony to the committee. So I wanted to get here to protect the administration, not that it needs to be protected. Though, in this case, I think it could use some protection.

I appreciate the chairman's letting me ask the question. Mr. BRADEMAS. Mr. Elliott, thank you very much, indeed, for having come, sir.

Mr. ELLIOTT. Thank you. It is a real pleasure to appear before my old committee.

Mr. BRADEMAS. I am pleased at this time to call on a distinguished former chairman of this subcommittee and most distinguished member of it still, who has become the chairman of the Select Subcommittee on Labor in this Congress, the gentleman from New Jersey, Mr. Daniels, to introduce one of the witnesses who will be testifying before our subcommittee this morning.

Mr. Daniels?

Mr. DANIELS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, I appreciate your kindness in affording me this opportunity to present a very distinguished citizen of the State of New

Jersey, Mr. Roger H. McDonough, who is the president of the American Library Association.

Mr. McDonough's work has been especially appreciated by his fellow citizens of New Jersey, where he serves as director of the State library archives and history of the State department of education.

Mr. McDonough has testified in the past before this committee and we have found his testimony has been of invaluable help and I am quite sure that whatever thoughts and ideas he has on this important legislation which is pending before this committee today will prove very much of value and assistance to you and our colleagues on this committee.

I want to join in your comments about the very distinguished former member of this committee who was also chairman of the subcommittee upon which I had the honor and privilege to serve, Mr. Carl Elliott. I want to say to you that he was one of the members who worked very, very hard and it was my pleasure to serve under his chairmanship. And I learned very, very much about the legislative process because of my service under his able leadership.

I would like to note for the record that I am sorry that I cannot stay for the subsequent testimony. I know that they will contribute much of value. I must appear before the Post Office and Civil Service Committee, where I chair the Subcommittee on Insurance, Retirement, and Health Benefits. We have a bill coming up before that committee which affects 2,700,000 Federal employees' pension rights. And I know this bill is of great interest to every Federal and civil employee. So I regret that I will not be able to stay for their testimony and also not have the opportunity to ask some questions which I have prepared for this purpose.

So, if I have the opportunity of getting back, I shall be back later this morning.

I want to thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am sure you will profit from the testimony of all of these gentlemen who will testify.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Thank you very much, Mr. Daniels.

Could the next group of witnesses please come to the table and just take your seats, gentlemen. Then I will ask each of you to identify himself.

I suggest that each of you try perhaps to either read his statement rather rapidly or summarize the gist of it, and then Mr. Steiger and I will put questions to all of you on the panel.

If you will just raise your hand or nod as I call the roll, so we will know who is who.

Roger H. McDonough, president of the American Library Association; Robert Vosper, university librarian of the University of California, Los Angeles, representing the Association of Research Libraries; Mr. Carl Overhage, director of Project Intrex, Massachusetts Institute of Technology; Mr. Herbert White, president of the Special Libraries Association; Dr. Robert Hayes, professor, UCLA; and Mr. Joseph Becker, president of the American Society for Information Science.

Gentlemen, the order in which I have called your names is the order in which they appear on my list. If that is agreeable to you, we will commence with you, Mr. McDonough.

STATEMENT OF ROGER H. MCDONOUGH, DIRECTOR, DIVISION OF STATE LIBRARY ARCHIVES AND HISTORY, STATE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION, NEW JERSEY

Mr. MCDONOUGH. Mr. Chairman, I am deeply grateful for this opportunity to appear before the committee.

I am grateful to you, sir, and the American Library Association is also, for sponsoring this legislation. And I am highly gratified that two Congressmen from New Jersey, Mr. Frank Thompson and Mr. Dominick Daniels, are on the bill.

To save time, I am going to excerpt my prepared remarks and will submit the full text for the record, with your permission, along with a couple of resolutions that I may refer to.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Without objection, the statement will be printed at this point.

(The statement and resolutions referred to follow :)

STATEMENT BY ROGER H. MCDONOUGH, DIRECTOR, DIVISION OF STATE LIBRARY ARCHIVES AND HISTORY, STATE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION, NEW JERSEY My name is Roger McDonough. I am President of the American Library Association, a non-profit educational organization of over 40,000 members which has striven for nearly one hundred years to further the development of school, college, university, research and public libraries as a highly essential bulwark to education, science, technology, business and culture. At present I am state librarian of New Jersey, and among my duties is the administration of the Library Services and Construction Act and Title II of the Elementary and Secondary School Act and other Federal legislation.

Speaking as President of the American Library Association, I wish to endorse wholeheartedly H.R. 8839, which has been introduced into the House to establish a permanent National Commission on Libraries and Information Science. I should like to add, also, that the Council, the governing body of the ALA, adopted a resolution approving the principles embodied in H.R. 8839 and similar measures at its Midwinter Conference on January 30, 1969, in Washington, D.C.

The American Library Association welcomed the establishment of the National Advisory Commission on Libraries in 1966. The Association looked forward to the far-reaching and thorough survey which the Commission completed and the recommendations made in its Report which was presented to the President last October. If these recommendations are implemented, the long-range objectives in providing adequate library and information service to all the American people can be achieved.

The Advisory Commission's first and most important single recommendation that must be implemented is the establishment of a permanent National Commission on Libraries and Information Science as a continuing Federal agency for broad planning and coordination. The Advisory Commission, in its consensus report, stated "The present Commission's efforts to analyze current and future national library needs, assess the strengths and weaknesses of existing library resources and services, and evaluate the effects of library legislation, leave the members with the absolute conviction that the goal of library adequacy will be achieved only as a consequence of long-range planning and fostering of the evolutionary process of library development. This will require taking advantage of present and emerging knowledge in information science; it will require encouraging and exploiting future research.

"... it should be stated here that the tasks of analyzing the needs, broad planning, setting standards, allocating resources, measuring performance, and coordinating efforts will be difficult and complex in the years ahead. Effective progress will require the sustained effort of the recommended ongoing National Commission on Libraries and Information Science working with Federal agencies, the national libraries, and many other institutions, groups, and individuals." The permanent ongoing National Commission on Libraries and Information Science should be charged with the responsibility of preparing full-scale plans to deal with the nation's library and information needs, and for advising the

Federal Government and other agencies, institutions, and groups-both public and private, with respect to those needs.

The objectives of the American Library Association in supporting H.R. 8839 are rooted in the belief that an informed citizenry is essential to our democratic society; that only through a continuing educational process can we attain our maximum competence and satisfaction as individuals and as citizens of our community, state and nation; and that the free, ready access to the accumulated knowledge of man is basic to improving our way of life.

The permanent Commission would make recommendations for the coordination of existing library and information science resources and services which are an integral part of all communities, schools, colleges, universities, and other organizations and institutions. In addition, it would have the responsibility of advising the Federal Government on further national requirements for such resources and services.

The need of the Nation for library services and resources is bigger than what is encompassed in the legislation already in effect and programs in operation. The Commission will not be a new layer placed on existing layers of governmental activity. It will instead be concerned with evaluating all library and information activities both within and without the government and proposing measures to mitigate deficiencies found to exist.

There has been substantial progress attributable to legislation enacted by the Congress during the last ten years although the level of appropriations has been far below the authorizations which represented minimum requirements. The gap between current resources and actual needs is so great that unless giant steps are taken to close it soon, the Nation's libraries will be dangerously inadequate in face of unparalleled growth of population and knowledge.

Library resources encompass human knowledge in all its forms, totality, and complexity, and must be organized in ways that will make it possible to readily locate and disseminate ideas and information to satisfy the needs and demands of individuals and groups in our dynamic society.

Libraries, as essential institutions in the total educational structure of our democracy and as the primary depositories of man's knowledge and ideas, have direct responsibility in making all books and other materials of communication readily available and in sufficient quantity to Americans of all ages, races, creeds, and circumstances. In performing this essential work, libraries require and deserve public support at all levels of government. The Nation itself has a stake in achieving this goal.

A long tradition has existed of free access to libraries in America. This tradition is reflected in each statement of standards published by the various types of libraries. In each instance, it is emphasized that convenient access is central to fulfillment of the library's purpose in relationship to the needs of its constituency-be it public, school, academic, institutional, or special library. According to the Report of the National Advisory Commission on Libraries, I am quoting: "New thinking and planning are critically needed regarding the distribution of responsibility and financial support to the various types of libraries if we are to serve the increasing demands. . . ." It also goes on to state:

"To avoid haphazard and fragmented response to the inevitable forces of a changing society, national planning is required that can be used to guide the next steps of all participants toward a recognized and achievable goal of adequate library service to all Americans. Because of the deep involvement of the Federal Government as producer, processor and user of information, and because this is a matter closely touching the national welfare, the leadership of the Federal Government is essential to the success of any plan."

The ultimate solution to this large and complex national problem would lie in the development by the proposed Commission of national plans which would serve as the framework for total library service for all. It would produce a coordinated attack based on experience, cooperation, innovation, and the results of research deeper and broader in scope than has ever been undertaken. New concepts must be expanded and old ones reevaluated. The National Commission on Libraries and Information Science would not be taking the place of any existing agency or mechanism but it would coordinate objectives and activities and thereby eliminate wasteful duplication and fragmentation of efforts.

Only through the development of a network of library and information services which can cope with equal effectiveness with the needs of the undereducated and the most sophisticated will the problem of equal informational