FBI Special Agent William M. Alexander examines the cache of weapons confiscated by the Bureau from the most infamous bank robbers since the 1930's, the arsenal of Bobby Wilcoxson and Albert Nussbaum. The raid took place on a farm outside Buffalo, N.Y., in 1961. A partial listing of the weapons largely acquired by the felons through dealers who specialize in mail-order guns follows: 2 Lahti antitank rifles and 4 cases of ammunition; 1 Thompson submachinegun; 5 German-made MP-40 submachineguns; 7 9MM. German P-38 automatic pistols, brand new; 1 M-1 rifle with folding stock; 1 Marlin machinegun barrel; 10 automatic pistols; 1 revolver; 2 German MG-42 machineguns; 32 rifle and hand grenades; 18 drums for machinegun bullets; 9 clips for machinegun bullets: 5 bulletproof vests; close to 8,000 rounds of ammunition.

shooting at a building in New Jersey. That is 3 rifles out of 1,000 rifles. And that is rather a small percentage. You could take any of the weapons in this photograph, most of which are Americanmade the handguns and all of the ammunition which I see is American-made, and you could take it against any of the manufacturers in the United States, you could make the same hypothesis.

Senator DODD. I think that the record shows that 556 of these antitank guns were sold.

Mr. CUMMINGS. I, of course, do not know the exact statistics at this moment, but if we sold some 556 we have an instance of two weapons seized in a criminal hideout, not actually used in a crime, along with a great deal of other American-produced weapons and other foreign material-I can see automatic weapons-and one case of some young juveniles shelling

Senator DODD. How much do you want-do you think that we have to establish crimes in order to convince you that this is a bad situation, that people should not be able to buy antitank guns-criminals certainly should not be able to buy them-they should not have them even in their possession. Do you have to have the fact that 556 of them were used in the commission of a crime?

Mr. CUMMINGS. Not at all. I would join with you in considering prohibiting the use of any such weapons.

Senator DODD. I agree with you. What are you going to do with them?

Mr. CUMMINGS. They will be disposed of according to the American laws. And if we cannot dispose of them, we will not dispose of them at all, unless we can do it in that way.

Senator DODD. Do you think that you could include that in your affidavit?

Mr. CUMMINGS. As you pointed out these were shipped to a federally licensed dealer and under this law they could still be shipped.

Senator DODD. Do you not think that ought to be stopped? Really, now, do you not think that it is wise and prudent and sensible for this country to outlaw people selling antitank guns with live ammunition? Mr. CUMMINGS. I think none of us could disagree with your basic premise, but equally I have a fairly great confidence in the American people's capacity to use and own almost any type of weapon or other dangerous instruments. Look

Senator DODD. Very well.

Mr. CUMMINGS. As a boy myself on a farm in Virginia I had higher caliber weapons than these. I never used them in any crime. And they still today exist in our museum in Alexandria, Va. Artillery and heavy weapons have been available on the American market ever since the Republic was founded. I can show you catalogs 50 and 60 and 70 years old where heavy weapons have been available.

Senator DODD. You are resident in Monte Carlo?

Mr. CUMMINGS. Yes.

Senator DODD. What are the gun laws there?

Mr. CUMMINGS. In Monaco, as well as in France, in general any person can buy a sporting rifle without any requirement other than a normal police permit which is given automatically. For a pistol you have to have a special police permit and pass an examination that you are capable of handling it.

Senator DODD. Do you think that would be a good thing for us to bave in this country?

Mr. CUMMINGS. I think on a local, regional law basis, if a standard law could be established that would be excellent, but there are interesting statistics in Europe regarding crime versus weapon requirements of governments. In England, for instance, where you have very stringent weapon laws you have at the present time an ever-increasing rate of crime with weapons. In Switzerland where you have, for all intents and purposes, no firearm laws and where in fact every male citizen must by law have a military rifle and/or machine pistol and/or machinegun in his house, there is practically no crime with weapons. Statistics are an interesting subject, because one can read them up or one can read them down.

Senator DODD. I am aware of that. I am trying to get your observations on these matters. Are you arguing that because England has a strict way of controlling the sale of firearms that crime has gone up? Mr. CUMMINGS. We have found in England that in spite of the very stringent firearms regulations, so far as I know as stringent as any civilized government in the world, it has no effect on the use of firearms in crime.

Senator DODD. I think that is a good example of what you said about statistics. That is all. Pardon me. I have just remembered something.

We have just had one incident involved in the misuse of this particular gun. I forgot about the shelling of the United Nations. Mr. CUMMINGS. I do not think that took place with a Lahti. Senator DODD. It was a bazooka, rather.

Mr. CUMMINGS. Because from the photos I saw in Europe it appeared to be some sort of a hand-manufactured bazooka-type weapon. Senator DODD. Well, now, do you know where that came from?

Mr. CUMMINGS. I do not know where the bazooka came from that shelled the United Nations.

Senator DODD. It came from the same company in New Jersey that this antitank gun came from.

Mr. CUMMINGS. No one can approve of such things, and no one can support the use illegally of any type of weapon and we certainly do

not.

Senator DODD. You got rid of yours after the incident in the United Nations, did you not?

Mr. CUMMINGS. I think that we have bazookas in stock at the present moment. That is an export item with us.

Senator DODD. And mortars?

Mr. CUMMINGS. Mortars we always have in stock.

Senator DODD. It must be quite a place over there.

Mr. CUMMINGS. I would welcome, if you and the subcommittee would visit us at any time, to give you a complete tour of it.

Senator DODD. No, thanks.

Mr. CUMMINGS. I think that you would find it rather interesting, Senator.

Senator DODD. I am sure that I would and that I would find it otherwise.

Thank you for appearing here today, Mr. Cummings.

Mr. CUMMINGS. Thank you for having me.

Senator DODD. I want to say for the record that we are bringing these hearings to a close today, in the sense that we will not have any more hearings. But we will leave the record open for 2 weeks. And

if any witness wishes to submit a statement he may submit it within that period of time. We have heard from a number of witnesses. We have heard both sides. And it is my understanding that as to the number of witnesses that have appeared here before us, approximately they are about even as being for and against. The record, however, does disclose a wealth of evidence documenting a need for the restriction and prohibition of firearms in interstate traffic from mail-order firms. I think it appeared, too, from the record that the mail-order traffic is a means whereby criminals, addicts, and juveniles have circumvented the laws of the States and of the cities of this country. So that I certainly hope that within 2 weeks we can get some action on this bill.

The data that you submitted earlier will be made a part of the record at this point.

(The documents referred to were marked "Exhibits Nos. 155, 156, 157, 158, and 159," and are as follows:)

EXHIBIT NO. 155

ORIGIN OF MILITARY SURPLUS

The military surplus firearms imported to the United States have their origin in any number of Western countries, both in Europe and South America. The importation of such weapons to the United States contributes actually to the overall world peace and security, inasmuch as these weapons are thus taken off the world market, and instead of providing a possible source for the illegal arms trade, they are channeled into the legitimate trade circles of the United States, winding up in the hands of hunters, shooters, and collectors. This has been established beyond a doubt many times before, but never better than when Mr. R. L. O'Connor, Administrator of the Bureau of Security and Consul Affairs of the Department of State, testified before the House Foreign Affairs Committee on March 25, 1958, as follows:

"I am frank to say that when there are questions of surplus arms cropping up abroad, which another area is bidding for it, may very often be the better part of valor and indeed the best part of our foreign relations to have them imported into this country rather than float around."

In addition, the obsolete weapons imported serve as payment for new, modern small arms needed by the various countries for defense against the East. Inasmuch as all such transactions take place in Western countries (South America and Europe), it is one more contribution to the common defense effort without costing anything to the American taxpayer.

It has been alleged the United States is being inundated with military surplus weapons from behind the Iron Curtain. The testimony of Mr. Robert N. Margrave, Director of the Office of Munitions Control of the Department of State, would indicate that it is impossible to import any firearms from the East bloc and that most thorough investigations are conducted by the U.S. Embassy's staff abroad to establish the bona fides of each transaction before an import license is granted to the importer.

We find that only two Russian rifles are involved; one the model 1891 Nagant, and the other the Tokarev. Both these weapons were imported from Finland under State Department licenses No. 794 dated February 23, 1960, No. 1040 dated March 4, 1960, and No. 3451 dated October 11, 1961, and were captured by the Finns in their heroic resistance against the Russians in 1939-40. These rifles are clearly marked with the Finnish Army abbreviation "SA" meaning "Suomi Armi." Many, if not all, of the Russian M1891 rifles imported by us were actually made under contract for the Czar in World War I by Remington and Westinghouse, respectively.

The Finnish Government has sold these weapons in an effort to obtain cash and thus strengthen their economy which, due to the closeness of the Soviet menace, suffers greatly from a drain caused by military requirements. By purchasing these weapons and importing them to the United States, we have, in a small way, contributed to the strengthening of the defense against the Eastern bloc, and we have done so at no cost whatsoever to the taxpayer— strictly by private initiative.

EXHIBIT NO. 156

FIREARMS IMPORT STATISTICS

Enclosed figures, "U.S. Imports of Merchandise for Consumption-Commodity by Country of Origin," FT-110 and FT-125, 1960 to 1964, inclusive, obtained from room 3040 of the Bureau of Census, Department of Commerce, indicate that the total quantity of firearms actually imported during the calendar years 1963 and 1964 amounts to 1,134,845 units, less than one-half of the figure mentioned in previous testimony; a total of 476,318 handguns, and 658,527 rifles and shotguns of all types, calibers, and price ranges. The total quantity of military surplus rifles actually imported during calendar 1963 and 1964 amounts to only 249,923 units. The enclosed official figures also point up the significant fact that the importation of military surplus rifles has suffered a steady decrease ever since 1960: from 314,887 units imported in that year to 93,859 units imported during calendar 1964, thus indicating the institutional position imported military rifles have assumed in the market.

We can only speculate as to the reason for the discrepancy between the Department of Commerce figures and the ones mentioned by other witnesses, but would like to point out that figures obtained from the Office of Munitions Control of the Department of State, based on import licenses issued, would be misleading because the material covered by a license may also appear on a second license, or because it may never enter the United States. An import license is valid for 6 months only. Many times the packing and shipping of the material takes longer than that. Licenses cannot be renewed but an entirely new license is issued, thus resulting very frequently in two licenses being issued for the same lot of weapons during any one calendar year. In addition, many rifles imported by INTERARMCO are subsequentily reexported under a Department of State export license, thus never entering the U.S. economy.

Source: The U.S. Department of Commerce-Bureau of Census reports titled "U.S. Imports of Merchandise for Consumption-Commodity by Country of Origin," Ft. 110 and Ft. 125.