Senator DODD. These figures would not be included in the Census Bureau statistics, would they? Mr. CUMMINGS. No, because they would only be included when the material was withdrawn for consumption. Senator DODD. Of course. Mr. CUMMINGS. But we do not bring all of that into the United States. You see, the United States is an onward shipping and processing point for licensed export orders so that of any number of units we have in bond of either weapons or ammunition, only a percentage of those may ultimately reach the American commercial market. Senator DODD. Well, they are here in bonded warehouses in the United States, and your one firm has, you say, from 100,000 to Mr. CUMMINGS. Anywhere from 100,000 to 500,000, depending upon our commercial position at any given moment. Senator DODD. What would be your estimate as to how many your competitors would have in bonded warehouses? Mr. CUMMINGS. Any figure that I gave would be a guess on that, but I would say in any case not more than one-half of what we might have. Senator DODD. Well, in the neighborhood of a couple of hundred thousand units. Mr. CUMMINGS. I do not think at this moment Senator DODD. One hundred thousand? Mr. CUMMINGS. I would say probably only a few thousand-maybe 20,000 or 30,000, but, again, it would be a guess on my part, because there is no real means of knowing that. Senator DODD. Well, in any event, I think it is clear that our figures are well-founded and based on reliable statistics. I notice in your statement that you say: Less than 20 percent of the surplus military imports are handguns. Mr. CUMMINGS. Yes. Senator DODD. And most of these are high-quality weapons manufactured to military specifications, such as the German Luger and bring retail prices of from $35 to $80. Mr. CUMMINGS. Yes. Senator DODD. Do you include in this category the thousands of surplus Smith & Wesson revolvers you imported? Mr. CUMMINGS. Yes. Senator DODD. You imported quite a number of those, as I remember. Mr. CUMMINGS. That is an item which we have regularly handled ever since we have been in business, and I believe that it is well recognized that the Smith & Wesson is as high a quality revolver as exists in the world. Senator DODD. Do you believe that these revolvers are particularly suited for lawful sporting purposes? Mr. CUMMINGS. It is the principal target revolver in the United States and has been for 50 years. Senator DODD. Our figures from our study and investigation at these hearings show that these weapons are among the principal mail-order guns sold in the United States. Mr. CUMMINGS. The Smith & Wesson revolver? Senator DODD. Yes. Mr. CUMMINGS. I would not say entirely so, but certainly near the top-I would not say that it is the top. According to the hearings I have read of your committee the Smith & Wesson revolver does not approach being the No. 1 item. Without question the No. 1 is these mass-produced caliber .22 which you, yourself, have on your own board here. Senator DODD. I think that I am right in these figures. Mr. CUMMINGS. There have not been that many Smith & Wesson revolvers available in the last 10 years. Senator DODD. Let me read you from a letter from the former president of Smith & Wesson with regard to the importation of these weapons. He says, and I quote: We made over three-quarters of a million lend-lease guns for Great Britain alone, not to mention contracts with Canada, South Africa, Australia, and other Commonwealth countries. After the war these guns were sold by their respective governments as surplus and through devious channels they have found their way into the United States where they are being rebored and converted to popular calibers and sold at cutrate prices. Such guns are, of course, unsafe and a detriment to our reputation since they carry our original trademark. Mr. CUMMINGS. Does he say they are unsafe as rebored, or unsafe, period? Senator DODD. I am quoting his letter, "such guns are, of course, unsafe." Mr. CUMMINGS. He is condemning himself in the lend-lease program he supported during the war if he says they are unsafe, because the identical guns were furnished to the U.S. Government. I would be inclined to doubt that Smith & Wesson would confirm that they furnished defective weapons to the U.S. Government. Senator DODD. I do not think that follows. They may be usedthey are old-they have been rebored-I do not think that follows. Mr. CUMMINGS. If they have been rebored Senator DODD. I do not think that they were unsafe when delivered 20 years ago. Mr. CUMMINGS. Of course, he does not say that. He says that they are unsafe. Senator DODD. You do not think that is true? Mr. CUMMINGS. I would disagree with that, and I think Senator DODD. Just one moment Mr. CUMMINGS. I think that the proofing records would confirm that. Senator DODD. This is one of these weapons that we have been discussing here this is a Smith & Wesson-this is a gun where a 14year-old boy in Fairfax County used it, and the National Rifle Association tested this gun and said that it was unsafe and should not have ever been used or sold. Mr. CUMMINGS. Could I see the pistol, please? Senator DODD. Yes, sir. Mr. CUMMINGS. Who imported this weapon into the United Statesor was it imported? It must have been imported. I see it has the British proof marks on the barrel. Senator DODD. Well, this is the gun, the type of gun that it has been stated is unsafe, and the National Rifle Association tested it and said that it was unsafe. And you question the validity of this opinion? Mr. CUMMINGS. I do. Why do they say that it is unsafe? Senator DODD. They think that it is unsafe. I do not know. You are a gun expert. Mr. CUMMINGS. This weapon has had its original barrel shortened and a new sight put on it. That, per se, would not make it unsafe. The cylinder, although loose, is not dangerously loose. And that, per se, would not make it unsafe. The ejector works perfectly. And the cylinder although bored out from its original caliber-this weapon was originally made for a British cartridge known as the .38-caliber Smith & Wesson, and it has been converted to a .38-caliber special, which means that when it is fired with an American cartridge case it causes a certain amount of gas leakage. Although that is unpleasant to fire, from a safety standpoint, I would submit that this gun is not blanco unsafe. I would not hesitate to fire this gun if I had to fire it, although I would not choose to fire it because it has been bored out. Senator DODD. Do you disagree with the former president of Smith & Wesson and the National Rifle Association? Mr. CUMMINGS. I disagree with the president of Smith & Wesson on his all-encompassing statement, and I would disagree with the National Rifle Association. I disagree with saying that this is totally unsafe, but I would admit that since it has a bored-out cylinder it is not the original caliber. If it were the original caliber it would be virtually as good as new. Senator DODD. Do you take any precautions in your business to make certain that criminals and juveniles do not purchase firearms by mail order? Mr. CUMMINGS. We take every possible precaution that we can. Our mail-order sales, as I have noted, are less than 10 percent of our business, but, really, for years we have instituted an affidavit system for the purchase of handguns and for the last year for all types of weapons, and we believe that we make a maximum effect to prevent weapons from falling into improper hands. Senator DODD. You speak of affidavits-do you mean that the purchaser is required to submit an affidavit Mr. CUMMINGS. Yes. Senator DODD. Giving his age? Mr. CUMMINGS. Certifying his age. And that he has never been convicted of a crime and that he is a responsible party to purchase such a weapon. Senator DODD. What do you do with the affidavit? Mr. CUMMINGS. We keep it in our records. Senator DODD. I am not suggesting that you are required to do any more, but it is good that you do that much. Would you not agree that this is not really effective in the sense of getting any real control over the sale of this type of firearm? Mr. CUMMINGS. If it is a handgun, and if the affidavit is required to be notarized, of course, any criminal person bent on a crime would not hesitate to prepare a fraudulent statement, but if the affidavit were not notarized it would be somewhat different. He would be faced with an exceedingly Senator DODD. What? Mr. CUMMINGS. He would have to swear to a fraudulent statement before a notary. And in the case of his age it would be fairly prima facie whether he was 18 or not. Senator DODD. But you do not do anything with the affidavit? You just file it you do not make any effort to ascertain whether it is true. or not? Mr. CUMMINGS. That is correct; but I am sure that you can recognize the mechanical difficulty of trying to do that. Senator DODD. As I say, I am not criticizing your practice. It is better than nothing, but my point is, I think you will agree that it is really of no effectiveness in getting real control over this traffic in mail-order guns. Mr. CUMMINGS. I would not say that it has no effectiveness. Mr. CUMMINGS. It could be stronger. How would you propose to get a real control over that sort of thing, by eliminating it altogether? Senator DODD. We have had such proposals before the Congress. I understand that your records show that you sold through your mail-order outlet 18 rifles and 10,000 rounds of ammunition to someone in Mississippi who is involved with the Ku Klux Klan. Did you get an affidavit from this person? Mr. CUMMINGS. If they were rifles, he would not necessarily have to have filed an affidavit. One of my officers here advises me that he was a Federal dealer. Mr. CUMMINGS. So he had a license to receive such material. Was such material used in a crime? I Senator DODD. I do not know whether it was used in a crime. only know that I understand that your figures show that-your books and records show that. I merely asked you what you do in a case like that. There is a dealer, he is licensed. The license should be more difficult to get, I think. Everybody can get a dealer's license for $1. Mr. CUMMINGS. Yes; but even under this new bill anyone can buy it if he wants to pay the fee and under Senator DODD. I agree with that. Mr. CUMMINGS (continuing). Under this law, this new bill, we would still be obliged to ship such a man this material. Senator DODD. You asked whether these rifles were used in the commission of a crime. According to a news story from the Washington Evening Star of October 2, 1964, these men in Mississippi were connected with a racial bombing in that State and they had four of those rifles. I am not charging you with any responsibility for this—I am merely asking if it was true. The point is that this is what can happen. So you are trying to do something about it, I am sure, by having an affidavit signed, with certain types of records, but this is exactly what does happen; unless we have control over it, it will go on happening. I want to make clear that I am not suggesting that you did anything wrong, but this is what the situation is. (The article referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 153" and is as follows:) |