STATEMENT OF SAMUEL R. MAXWELL, WASHINGTON STATE SPORTSMEN'S COUNCIL, INC., SEATTLE, WASH.

Mr. MAXWELL. The eight Northwestern States, Mr. Chairman. Senator DODD. Well, sir; I think perhaps we might proceed by your going ahead with your testimony.

Mr. MAXWELL. Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, in December of 1963 the Washington State Sportsmen's Council established a committee on firearms legislation. I have had the privilege of being chairman of that committee since its inception. The council is an organization formed in 1938 to further the principles of conservation and sportsmanship in areas such as fish and game management, firearms safety, and pollution control. Concern of its members over the increasing activity of the Congress on the subject of firearms legislation prompted the formation of this committee by the board of directors. I might add that the council is an active affiliate of the 2 million member National Wildlife Federation. One of our members, Frank Bunker, presently holds the position of vice president of that organization. The council has no connection with the National Rifle Association, as we are essentially a conservation organization. Some of our clubs or members may be affiliated with NRA, however. In March 1964 the council unanimously adopted a resolution pertaining to firearms legislation. In March 1965 the resolution was updated and again adopted unanimously by the membership. I submit the resolution as part of this statement.

(The resolution follows:)

RESOLUTION No. 365-4

Whereas bills are being introduced in the Congress which would impose restrictions on purchase and possession of firearms for the honest citizen; and Whereas the right to keep and bear arms is guaranteed the individual citizen in the second amendment to the Constitution; and

Whereas previous restrictions imposed on the honest citizen has not reduced crime and delinquency; and

Whereas restrictive firearms legislation would impair progress in the improvement of hunting and shooting as outdoor recreation; and

Whereas the National Police Officers Association, the National Rifle Association, the National Wildlife Federation, the Shooting Sports Foundation, the International Association of Game, Fish, and Conservation Commissioners, and many others are on record opposing such legislation: Now, therefore, be it Resolved by the Washington State Sportsmen's Council in convention assembled at Vancouver, Wash., on the 14th day of March 1965, That we participate actively in resisting unrealistic firearms control and unequivocally declare opposition to registration of firearms at any level of government.

Mr. MAXWELL. Mr. Chairman, it is the opinion of this organization that the bill under consideration by this committee, S. 1592, falls in that category of "unrealistic firearms control" condemned by this resolution.

Shortly after the passage of this resolution a memorial to Congress was drafted by myself and the firearms legislation chairman of the Washington Arms Collectors, Inc., and fully supported by the Washington State Rifle and Pistol Association. The memorial was subsequently passed by the house of representatives by a vote of 63 to 18 and the senate by a vote of 35 to 0. I wish to enter the memorial as part of my statement, as follows:

STATE OF WASHINGTON-39TH EXTRAORDINARY SESSION

HOUSE JOINT MEMORIAL NO. 30

By REPRESENTATIVES DAY, HARRIS, AND SHERIDAN

To the Honorable Lyndon B. Johnson, the President of the United States, the President of the Senate, the Speaker of the House of Representatives, and to the Senate and the House of Representatives of the United States, in Congress assembled:

We, your memorialists, the Senate and House of Representatives of the State of Washington, in legislative session assembled, most respectfully represent and petition as follows:

Whereas there is pending before Congress the Dodd bills, known as S. 1591 and S. 1592, relating to regulation and registration of interstate firearms sales; and

Whereas this legislation, if enacted, could: (1) Deny private citizens their constitutional property rights of selling personal valuable or rare firearms to other citizens through interstate shipment; (2) force private citizens to sell firearms in interstate commerce only to dealers at a property value loss; and (3) infringe upon the constitutional right of private citizens to keep and bear arms; Now, therefore, your memorialists respectfully urge the Congress of the United States to take great caution not to enact any legislation relating to the regulation and registration of interstate firearms sales which would tend to infringe upon the aforementioned constitutional rights of citizens of the United States.

Be it resolved, That copies of this memorial be transmitted to the Honorable Lyndon B. Johnson, President of the United States, the President of the U. S. Senate, the Speaker of the House of Representatives, and to each Member of Congress from the State of Washington.

Mr. Chairman, I believe this memorial represents not only the views of the organizations that sponsored same, but also that of the majority of the residents of our great Evergreen State as shown by the vote of our legislators.

The Washington State Sportsmen's Council certainly supports the drive to prevent firearms from being delivered to juveniles, but we do not believe that legislating the entire Nation of adult gun owners with a law on the Federal level will accomplish this aim. The Federal Government should require common carriers of interstate commerce to conform to State laws when delivering firearms and encourage States having no such law to enact same. Such laws with appropriate penalties on the State level would be much more easily enforced, and therefore more effective in keeping firearms control. It is our opinion that S. 1592 would cost more to enforce both in money and citizens rights, than its theoretical benefits deserve, while harassing all honest citizens in the process.

An important prerequisite to passage of any law is that it be explicit in its intent and authority. This is violated flagrantly in S. 1592. In nine separate paragraphs a statement similar to "as the Secretary may by regulation prescribe" is found. These loopholes would then put registration of firearms and Federal police control of all firearms on the national level at the whim of the Secretary of the Treasury. Another statement empowering the Secretary to deny a license because he does not like the business experience, trade connections, or financial standing of the applicant is dictatorial in nature and completely unacceptable. We were dismayed to see firearms with bores over one-half inch included. This subjects the vast majority of collectors items to a fate vaguely left to the pleasure of the Secretary.

Another section requires a $500 manufacturers license to manufacture ammunition. It does not exclude gun clubs who have reloading facilities for their members or individuals that reload for friends. What possible advantage could this have to law enforcement? I could go on discussing details, but much of this has been covered in other testimony and I think our basic disagreement has been aired. We feel the bill would give Federal officials unlimited power to impose uncalled-for restrictions on law-abiding citizens. It would not, however, deter criminals from acquiring and using firearms. In fact I see a complete absence of penalties for the use of firearms while committing a crime. The penalties are directed at sellers and buyers of guns. It is a peculiar situation when it is unsafe to walk the streets of our great cities and even our Capital at night without fear of being molested. It is even more peculiar when a judge in Chicago releases a man for carving up an officer with a broken bottle, saying, what is a person to do when approached by an officer with a gun? He was merely defending himself; or when an officer is beaten in New York and a storekeeper trying to aid him is stabbed while 200 onlookers cheer; or in Philadelphia when a female store detective is savagely beaten while attempting to arrest a shoplifter while a crowd stood and watched; or again in New York a woman being attacked screams for help and neighbors turn their backs. In an atmosphere like this, it would seem proper for the Congress to stop harassing honest gun owners and encourage enforcement and prosecution of our laws to prevent such activities. Laws directed at the criminal for crimes committed with a firearm would be actively supported by the Washington State Sportsmen's Council.

We, the honest citizens, gun owners, and sportsmen highly resent the comments by members of this committee linking us with the Ku Klux Klan, Minutemen, and Black Muslims. We and an ever-increasing number of otherwise disinterested citizens are becoming alarmed at the smear-type tactics being used to degrade the National Rifle Association, a respectable and honored organization nearly 100 years old. We are becoming sick and tired of being pictured by supporters of this bill as wild-eyed gun nuts, extremists, militants, and so forth, when this committee knows full well the vast majority of gun owners do not fit these descriptions.

Senator DODD. Are you talking about me or someone else?

Mr. MAXWELL. Whoever is putting publicity out from this committee.

Senator DODD. I would like for you to document for the record where I or any other member of the subcommittee ever associated you with the Ku Klux Klan or the Black Muslims or the Minutemen.

Mr. MAXWELL. I have some clippings here. I have more at home. Unfortunately I was in North Dakota when I was called to the committee, and do not have my file with me. I only have what I had in my suitcase.

Senator DODD. You don't have to do it today. You made the statement. I expect that you know what you are talking about, and I expect you to document your statement.

Mr. MAXWELL. I feel I have this statement documented.
Senator DODD. You give us the documentation.

Mr. MAXWELL. We request that these hearings be held on a nationwide basis. S. 1592 directly affects more than 40 million gun owners and indirectly affects all citizens as an infringement of their right to bear arms. Nationwide hearings have been held on relatively insignificant items such as national parks and wilderness bills. A bill as unprecedented as this one certainly rates such consideration.

To summarize, we believe that existing laws present adequate firearms control within the scope of our Constitution, however, we recognize the fact that juveniles and felons are illegally receiving and using firearms. The proposed bill, S. 1592, would not solve this problem. By their very nature, felons and delinquent juveniles do not obey the law, and therefore it is unreasonable to assume that they would obey this one. To actually solve the problem, the offender simply must be convinced that the risk is not worth it. Therefore, enforcement of the responsibility for prosecution and penalization of these individuals for the serious crimes committed with firearms should be our goal. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator DODD. I assume you carefully read this bill.

Mr. MAXWELL. Yes, I have.

Senator DODD. You have been in this activity of the Washington State Sportsmen's Council for quite a while?

Mr. MAXWELL. I have.

Senator DODD. A good many years. I suppose you are careful about you say about a bill or a member of a Senate committee. Mr. MAXWELL. I am.

what

Senator DODD. Why did you write a letter saying that I had loaded the witness list here, that those who appeared were proponents of the bill? You don't need to look anything up. There have been 46 witnesses, and 23 of them have been for the bill and 23 against it.

How do you justify writing a Member of the Senate saying we had loaded the witness list with those in favor of it? Twenty-three and twenty-three, I think, is a very fair distribution.

Mr. MAXWELL. I think you misunderstand my so-called allegation. May I quote?

Senator DODD. I will read it to you.

Mr. MAXWELL. Fine.

SENATOR DODD (reading):

I find specific evidence that the Senator from Connecticut is not interested in listening to criticism of this bill, constructive or otherwise. He is interested only in sandbagging the hearing record with pro testimony coming in and attempt to keep statements of the opponents smothered. Never have I witnessed such an obvious attempt by an organ of the U.S. Government to ride roughshod over our citizens' genuine concern for legislation.

Mr. MAXWELL. I think, Senator, the questioning that I have witnessed on the television and the statements that I have read in the press of this committee's activities have been that you have been very rough on the opponents of the bill, and you have been very nice and drawn out the testimony quite lengthily with people that are for the bill, as was witnessed this afternoon.

Senator DODD. Have you been at these hearings?
Mr. MAXWELL. I beg your pardon?

Senator DODD. Have you attended the hearings?

Mr. MAXWELL. No, I haven't.

Senator DODD. You are quite a witness. You certainly wrote in this letter that we had loaded the witness stand with those who were for the bill, and the facts are it is 23 to 23. Now you are telling me how we conducted the hearings, and you have never been at one.

Mr. MAXWELL. I tell you what I have seen on the television and in press releases.

Senator DODD. Well, Mr. Maxwell, I will put the same amount of value on your testimony as I put on your letter.

Mr. MAXWELL. The letter was not addressed to you, sir. It was addressed to Mr. Magnuson. And may I point out to the people that may have not seen the letter, that the reason I wrote the letter was my inability to get onto this hearing for 2 or 3 months.

Senator DODD. I will put it all in the record.

Mr. MAXWELL. Thank you, sir. I would appreciate that.

Senator DODD. At this point.

You wanted to come on ahead of everybody else.

Mr. MAXWELL. Not necessarily, sir. I expected an answer.

Senator DODD. You got it. We will put all that correspondence in the record.

Mr. MAXWELL. I would like also your original letter, if I may, to be put in the record, your original letter to me. Senator DODD. We will put it all in.

Mr. MAXWELL. Thank you.

Senator DoDD. That is all.

Mr. MAXWELL. Thank you, sir.

Senator DODD. We will recess this hearing until next Tuesday at 10

a.m.

(The documents referred to were marked "Exhibits Nos. 144, 145, 146, and 147," and are as follows:)

EXHIBIT NO. 144 CHRONOLOGY OF EVENTS REGARDING REQUEST OF MR. SAMUEL L. MAXWELL TO TESTIFY AT HEARINGS ON S. 1592

SAMUEL L. MAXWELL, WASHINGTON STATE SPORTSMEN'S COUNCIL, INC. May 14, 1965: Mr. Maxwell addressed letter to Carl Perian, asking for a reserved date and alternate date to testify on S. 1592 (exhibit No. 122).

May 17, 1965: Form letter signed by Senator Dodd sent to Mr. Maxwell, informing him that his name would be included among those who have requested to testify on S. 1592 (exhibit No. 123).

May 18, 1965: William Beeks, counsel, Commerce Committee, called regarding Maxwell. He was informed that no firm date had been given for Mr. Maxwell's testimony.

May 20, 1965: Mr. Beeks, Commerce Committee, called again. He was told that when Mr. Maxwell is called to testify, he [Beeks] would be advised.

May 27, 1965: Senator Henry M. Jackson's office called re the Maxwell request to testify. Senator Jackson's office was informed that Mr. Maxwell had not yet been given a date to appear.

May 28, 1965: Senator Warren G. Magnuson's office called on behalf of Mr. Maxwell. They were given similar information to that given Senator Jackson. May 28, 1965: Mr. Lou Clapper, National Wildlife Federation, called in behalf of Mr. Maxwell. Mr. Clapper was informed that Mr. Maxwell's letter was on file and that he had not been scheduled on the bill at that time. Mr. Maxwell's letter of May 14 asked that coordination be expedited through Mr. Clapper and Mr. Clapper was informed that when a date had been set, he would be so notified. July 1, 1965: Copy of letter to Senator Warren G. Magnuson from Mr. Maxwell, dated July 1, 1965 (exhibit No. 124).

July 8, 1965: Maxwell letter dated July 1, 1965, forwarded to Mr. Carl L. Perian, Juvenile Delinquency Subcommittee, by Senator Jackson, with request that he be advised of action taken to schedule Mr. Maxwell's appearance before the subcommittee.