No. 3 question was position on provision outlawing interstate and mail-order sales. Answer: 64 percent supported the provision outlawing interstate and mail-order sales.

No. 4 question: position on provision outlawing sales to minors. Answer: 53 percent opposed the provision outlawing sales to minors. This was a surprise.

Senator DODD. You are not one of them, obviously.

Mr. RICKBEIL. This was a surprise to me, because in Minnesota through our firearms safety program, we have learned a lot about helping young people to learn how to use guns, and do it through limited restrictions.

Mr. MASHAW. Mr. Chairman, if I might interject, I think it would assist in evaluating this return, I think it reflects the extremely rural nature of the location of these stores and local rules which have grown up over the years in selling guns to teenagers.

Senator DODD. I am sure you are right about that.

Mr. MASHAW. We didn't editorialize to influence the return. We wanted to know what they thought about.

Senator DODD. I understand.

Mr. RICKBEIL. Question No. 5, whether they would continue to sell firearms and ammunition if required to pay a $100 license fee?

Ninety-one percent stated they would discontinue sales of firearms and ammunition if required to pay the $100 license fee.

Now, of course, this would mean in 10 years a thousand dollars, and this has to come out of net profits.

No. 6 question, the amount considered reasonable as a dealer license fee.

Answer: Amounts considered reasonable as a licensing fee: 42 percent said the $1 we now pay; 33 percent said $5; 16 percent said $10; 6 percent, $25; 1 percent, $50; and 2 percent, $100.

We received a return of more than 4,000 ballots. They came from every State.

We wish to reemphasize at this time the fact that in small towns and in rural communities the local hardware store is the source of supply for firearms and ammunition on a year-round basis.

You see, really, in a community like ours we are almost in a different world than the problems New York has. We are selling we never think of someone buying a weapon from us, really, for a robbery or a crime. We are selling it for sport, and a gun to a boy is like a doll to a little girl.

Senator DODD. I think there is a difference unquestionably in the situation in your community and that of the city of New York. No doubt about it.

Mr. RICKBEIL. Farmers, ranchers, and local sportsmen depend on them as a daily source of supply. It would be tragic to close many of these small local outlets and deprive local people of their source of supply by imposing a discriminatory high license fee that has no clear relation to crime prevention.

If a license fee is necessary, there is no reason why it can't be kept at a reasonable figure. We call your attention to the fact that these small hardware merchants are completely bona fide. The amount of the license fee will have no effect on his qualifications as a bona fide dealer.

We also urge the Congress to take steps to assure that the regulatory agency confine regulations and recordkeeping requirements to the very minimum necessary to accomplish the real objectives of the act. Regulations can be made effective and can easily be followed even by small dealers if they are kept simple and reasonable.

Also, efforts should be made to prevent innocent violations from penalties. A dealer's liability should be limited to cases where he knows or has reasonable cause to believe that a customer is not eligible to buy.

In conclusion, we recommend that any license fee imposed on dealers selling firearms and ammunition should be $10 or less. Limitation by the Federal Government on the rights of legitimate and responsible people to purchase and own a gun should be kept to the minimum which is absolutely necessary to carry out the objectives set forth in the President's message. Regulations including those governing sales to minors and those governing interstate and mail-order sales should be aimed primarily at concealed weapons and other firearms not suitable primarily for sporting purposes.

We appreciate this opportunity to present these views to your committee. We give you assurance of our desire to cooperate with any law enforcement agencies and with your committee in accomplishing the objectives that we all agree should be achieved.

Senator DODD. I am grateful to you, Mr. Rickbeil. You know, one of the problems we have had in trying to legislate this bill arises out of the fact that some stores like yours are located very close to big metropolitan centers. I am sure you are not aware of it but we had testimony here about one such store a few miles, I don't know how many miles from Washington-right at the District line where 40 percent of their sales of guns were to criminals.

You see, this is a real problem. There is a pattern of this all over the country. I am sure this isn't so in your store, I know it isn't so. But it is awfully hard to write legislation, sectionally, to say if there is a hardware store near a metropolitan center

Mr. MASHAW. Mr. Chairman, as you get the gist of our statement, our primary objection to an area of this law is this licensing fee. Senator DODD. Yes; I think it is too high.

Mr. MASHAW. It is not going to mean these stores would go out of business, they would go out of guns and ammo business.

Senator DODD. We are going to do something about that.
Mr. MASHAW. We appreciate that assurance. Actually-
Senator DODD. I think it is too high.

Mr. MASHAW (continuing). We find difficulty in seeing-if a store wanted to set himself up as a front like you speak of there, as a supplier for disreputable folks, whether it is a hundred dollars or $10 really isn't going to make a difference.

Senator DODD. No; I quite agree. I don't think we have any difference over that point of view.

Mr. MASHAW. I know from experience in talking to other elements that this hundred-dollar fee would tend to bigness and outlets and this is bad so far as our folks are concerned.

Senator DODD. I agree with you. I think you have a very good point. Mr. RICKBEIL. I think it might be helpful if the manufacturers could put the model number and serial number of every gun in the

same location. Many guns don't have a serial number. They have just a model number.

Senator DODD. I know.

Mr. RICKBEIL. It would seem to me this might be helpful.

Senator DODD. Not a bad idea. I am a little bit distressed about the 53 percent opposing the sale to minors. You know the bill actually permits the sale of rifles and shotguns to persons over 18, and the prohibition is really on the sale of handguns.

Mr. MASHAW. I wonder what the results would have been if we polled the mothers of the land.

Senator DODD. I think it would have been different. [Laughter.] Well, gentlemen, I am very grateful for your testimony. It is constructive and it is valuable, and we will certainly bear it most importantly in mind. I have a high opinion of the hardware industry. I know them where I live. They are good people. There is no one on this committee who is trying to

Mr. MASHAW. I don't think you will find any type of merchant to be more cooperative. Our biggest problem is keeping security, to keep them from breaking the windows to get the guns out.

Senator DODD. There is one business I wanted to be in, I always said I wanted to own a hardware store.

Mr. MASHAW. Don't retire to it. It is awfully hard work.

Senator DODD. It is one line my wife doesn't want me to go in.

Mr. RICKBEIL. Mr. Mashaw was with the FBI before he came with the hardware association.

Senator DODD. I didn't know that but I could tell he was a very bright man.

Mr. Dennis, we have a time problem and I don't want to be restrictive on you but I know-we want to hear your testimony. I wondered if, would it be possible, would it be acceptable, to put your statement in, have it printed.

I have read it and we will all read it, without having you read it here formally, would that make any real difference to you?

STATEMENT OF ROBERT T. DENNIS, ASSISTANT CONSERVATION DIRECTOR OF THE IZAAK WALTON LEAGUE OF AMERICA

Mr. DENNIS. Would there be time for me to brief it here this morning?

Senator DODD. To do what?

Mr. DENNIS. To brief the statement this morning?

Senator DODD. Yes, if you could do it briefly. It would help me if you could. I have a committee meeting that I promised to attend. I don't want to cut you down, that is not my purpose at all. You represent a very important organization and you are certainly entitled: to a full hearing.

Can you brief it? If you want to-are you located in Washington? Mr. DENNIS. Yes, sir.

Senator DODD. Or you could come back, you know, and take all the time you want next week. I will do anything you want to do. We ran a little longer than we anticipated.

Mr. DENNIS. I have been scheduled on this four times.
Senator DODD. I didn't know that.

Mr. DENNIS. I guess I would like to have the opportunity to present this to the commitee this morning, if I might, sir.

Senator DODD. All right. I can only give you 5 minutes this morning.

Mr. DENNIS. I am Robert T. Dennis, assistant conservation director of the Izaak Walton League of America. The league is a nationwide organization of citizens dedicated to wise and proper management and use of the Nation's natural resources. As is true of other conservation associations, the league's membership base is constituted of sportsmen. We estimate that more than 80 percent of our members own firearms; they use theirs in accordance with the law. We therefore have considerable interest in the bill before you today, and appreciate the opportunity to present our views concerning it and firearms control in general.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to have this whole statement appear in the record if I might.

Senator DODD. It will.

Mr. DENNIS. As you see from reading it, we have attempted to assist the committee by outlining

Senator DODD. Yes.

Mr. DENNIS (continuing). A series of firearms controls which we support and a series which we would not support. A good part of the statement is designed to outline our views on the various bills before you in accordance with these proposals.

But I do want to say, just in brief, that we would support any firearms bill which incorporates our recommendations. We would be very happy to work with the committee in implementing existing legislation to meet these regulations. I say, first of all, we would support a firearms control proposal to provide and require enforcement of strict penalties for criminal misuse of firearms.

Second, we would certainly support a bill which would drastically restrict traffic in and strictly regulate individual ownership of machineguns, bazookas, antitank guns, land mines, and similar paraphernalia of war as well as sawed-off shotguns, sawed-off rifles, the silencers, and similar paraphernalia of crime.

I might say we are as concerned as anyone else about the reported proliferation of private armies, while we list a number of other things we would support here.

For instance, prevention of gun sales to juveniles unless parental consent is clearly demonstrated, and a number of other things which we certainly support.

I think that the statement also goes into considerable detail on control proposals which we would oppose. Because of this position as briefed here, we cannot support S. 1592 as presently written. We can support some Federal firearms legislation. We supported S. 1975 last year. We were prepared to support S. 14 this year. We could probably go beyond either of those bills.

I would like to go beyond the written statement to respectfully suggest that this committee consider a four-bill package approach to the firearms misuse problem. This would include, first, a bill making it a Federal crime to use or carry any firearms which has been transported in interstate or foreign commerce in the commission of any

robbery, assault, murder, rape, burglary, kidnaping, or homicide other than involuntary manslaughter.

Senator DODD. May I ask you a question about that, I think every State has such a statute.

Mr. DENNIS. Well, perhaps we need a Federal statute in this area setting mandatory penalties for such crimes.

Senator DODD. Yes.

Mr. DENNIS. A great number of our members are very concerned about what appears to be a laxity or an inability of law enforcement bodies at local levels to deal with these people.

We know that people that do use firearms illegally seem to be turned loose again and again, and our members are concerned about this.

The second bill that we would urge be considered would be a bill along the lines of S. 14 or S. 1965, perhaps going beyond these measures to set reasonable controls over movement of firearms in interstate and foreign commerce.

Third, a bill along the lines of S. 1591 to place strict controls on war and gangster weapons. Again our statement indicates a couple of modifications that we would like to have in those bills, or in that bill, but basically we very strongly support that bill.

Fourth, we wonder if it might not be possible for the Congress to take some action setting Federal standards under which an individual may transport personal firearms across State lines so long as he complies with State and local laws and regulations effective in areas wherein he actually makes use of such firearms. What we are getting at here is the need for nationwide criteria under which a person traveling interstate could transport his firearms through, and I emphasize through, any State or locality without being arrested for violation of State or local controls. Such controls are not drawn in the first place with the intention of harrassing law-abiding tourists and travelers but some could, in fact, have that effect.

I think that this is perhaps an extension of the controls that S. 1592 tries to place on this personal transport interstate. We think we understand the purpose of that, we recognize this interstate problem but we also think that without some sort of nationwide guidelines that any individual could get into difficulty trying to transport guns interstate for lawful purposes, even though he is a perfectly law-abiding citizen.

Again, as the statement points out it would appear to us under existing State and local laws that it would be unwise for anybody to try to transport a handgun, let us say, from Washington to Boston, without doing considerable research about all the areas he is going to pass through en route. I think that perhaps your efforts to reduce the crime problem caused by interstate movement of guns could be matched by some effort under the interstate and foreign commerce powers of the Federal Government to protect law-abiding citizens who are really trying to transport firearms for lawful purposes.

Mr. CHAIRMAN. I am sorry that we did not have opportunity to present this statement in full. I again hope that it will be fully included in the record.

Senator DODD. Of course it will be word for word. You can be sure of that. It will be printed exactly as you presented it.