tistics there is a growing use on the part of young people of firearms of the type that I described, the starter pistol.

Senator DODD. Yes.

Mr. REISMAN. There are incidents involving youths and their gang fights where weapons of the firearms nature are being used more and more frequently.

Senator DODD. I was particularly interested in your testimony about the sawed-off shotgun. I think you made a good point when you said that as it becomes more difficult for people to obtain handguns they seem to be turning more and more to the long guns. This is one of the reasons why I felt that the long guns have to be included in any meaningful statutory amendment which will give us some reasonable control over the sale and possession of firearms.

Mr. REISMAN. Yes. The gun on the left at the bottom level is a perfect example. There is an innocuous .22 plinking rifle which has been chopped down most effectively and simply into a handgun, a concealable weapon.

Senator DODD. That one on the right is a shotgun?

Mr. REISMAN. The one on the right is a shotgun.

Senator DODD. I would hate to use it myself but I would think that would almost tear the hands off a man.

Mr. REISMAN. Yes, it might at that, and we have had many instances, including a recent homicide of a man in New York by the use, among others, of a sawed-off shotgun. That was

Senator DODD. Do you know if the users suffer injury?

Mr. REISMAN. I beg your pardon?

Senator DODD. Do you know whether the individual who uses such a sawed-off shotgun suffers injury when he fires it?

Mr. REISMAN. He suffers no injury and probably in the heat of the incident he hardly knows that there has been the terrible recoil that has occurred.

On occasion, I have learned the gun has been torn from his hands by the blast, and occasionally they are recovered at the scene, but the victim has either died, been killed, or maimed by it. It is a terribly potent weapon as evidenced by the fact that the Federal laws have attempted to curb sawed-off shotguns for many, many years.

Senator DODD. We know that, nationally, rifles and shotguns account for about 30 percent of the murders committed with firearms. Do you think that figure is accurate in New York City, about that figure?

Mr. REISMAN. No. It probably would be less.

The figures I gave were 37 homicides with rifles and shotguns for the year 1963. We have no further figures on it. I would think of the homicides committed with firearms there would be a larger proportion, 50 to 60 percent perhaps, with pistols and revolvers. If you will bear with me one moment. I am informed by Lieutenant Leary of ballistics that some 20 percent would be rifles and shotguns.

Senator DODD. Well, I am not surprised. My own judgment is that homicides with the long guns are more frequent in the rural areas than they are in the cities. But even 20 percent is disturbing, I think. Mr. REISMAN. Yes. Quite disturbing.

Senator DODD. Have you had any problems or experience with extremist groups arming themselves?

Mr. REISMAN. We have had some indication of it, and except in discussing it in broad terms, Mr. Chairman, I think you will understand that I would prefer not to document it in any detail. Senator Dodd. I do.

Mr. REISMAN. But we have had instances over the past few years which suggests an increase in traffic and possession in these weapons by militant extremist groups.

Senator DODD. I heard this morning that your very competent police department seized some weapons last night in New York. Was it a sizable seizure?

Mr. REISMAN. It was a fairly sizable seizure. I do not have at this. time the complete details on it. Of course, since it is a pending case, I will not discuss it in any detail, but the weapons seized included mortars, mortar ammunition, assorted ammunition, parts of machineguns, and items, and a few handguns.

Further details on it are still unknown to me here.

Senator DODD. I just want to check notes I made while you were testifying.

Would you say that the zip gun was to some extent disappearing, so to speak?

Mr. REISMAN. Yes; I would think so. It is becoming, in effect, the model A of the firearms business. On the display chart, about halfway down, is the old-style zip gun which was single shot and relatively dangerous to the user because of the problem of blowbacks and misfires. But in view of the easy accessibility of the more modern weapons, we find less zip guns and more converted starter pistols in the hands of these young people.

It is no longer necessary to make them in the workshops of the Vocational schools.

Senator DODD. Yes.

I don't remember who it was who testified here, but someone brought this matter up, and, therefore, I wanted to have your view of it.

Mr. REISMAN. I would think, if I may add, facetiously, one of the values has been there are less automobile aerials snapped off to be used as the barrels of zip guns.

Senator DODD. Some good comes out of everything.

Mr. REISMAN. Yes, there is always a silver lining.

Senator DODD. I am glad you made the point that the Federal Bureau of Investigation statistics show that in those areas where firearms regulations are lax the homicide rate by firearms is substantially higher than where more stringent regulations are in effect.

There is a lot of fussing about these statistics. As you know, it is always easy to argue over statistics. I think they speak for themselves. But as a law enforcement officer, would you say this is your view as well?

Mr. REISMAN. Yes, sir. It is our view that statistics clearly indicate those areas where there is less stringent control have a higher murder, homicide, and crime of violence rate in the use of firearms.

Overall, New York, based on a rate per hundred thousand with comparable cities, if there are any really, throughout the country, ranges ranks about 18th.

Senator DODD. I think the strongest opposition to this bill has come from sportsmen who have been misled about it, of course, but nevertheless they feel that if this bill is passed it will greatly restrict their right to hunt, sport with the aid of guns. I don't know how many years you have had the Sullivan law in New York City, but a good

many.

Mr. REISMAN. A good many.

Senator DODD. New York State is a great hunting State.

Mr. REISMAN. Yes.

Senator DODD. Has the State law, the city law, ordinance, restricted the sportsmen of New York State?

Mr. REISMAN. It has not restricted the sportsmen to any extent so far because our primary regulation until now-it may continue for some time, has been narrowly in the area of pistols and revolvers, and only that type of firearms dealer must be licensed in the State.

If the new laws that we propose are enacted, there has been some suggestion that it will restrict them, but it will not. The new law is not designed to give any discretionary power over the issuance of proper certification.

Senator DODD. Of course, we have had some testimony here from sportsmen or persons associated with gun sport, to the effect they didn't want any control at all, even over handguns, this rather startled me. I remember one witness who made the suggestion. I said I have been in the woods a good deal and I don't remember ever running across a hunter with a pistol. Maybe in the big game hunting areas this was necessary, but a few of them have opposed any regulation of even handguns on this ground.

Mr. REISMAN. Yes; they are balanced off by those on the other side who would suggest the complete prohibition on any possession of weapons. They even themselves out.

Senator DODD. Well, we had a man here yesterday who said he thinks every house should have a gun in it. I don't know how much further he would go. I didn't ask him. Maybe he meant every person should be armed in this country. That would be a logical progression. He didn't say that. So we have a rather broad spectrum in these hearings. Mr. REISMAN. Yes; I am not a novitiate in these arguments, Mr. Chairman. I have been involved in these discussions on a local level for some years.

Senator DODD. Do you have any idea, Mr. Commissioner, how many guns which come into the hands of your Department are foreign imports?

I

Mr. REISMAN. We have never run a statistic of that nature. would think a considerable percentage would be of the foreign variety, the small automatics, German, Austrian, Italian, and Spanish origin, a fair number of them. I have seen them myself when I have been in the ballistics units. And many, many of them, of course, are war surplus.

Senator DODD. Yes, millions of them are in this country.

Mr. REISMAN. Yes.

Senator DODD. Nobody knows exactly how many, but we know there are millions that were shipped in here.

Well, I can only say to you again we are very grateful to you and your associates; you have always been very cooperative, and the testi

mony is of the greatest importance, because it comes from the experience and knowledge of firearms in use in the commission of crime in the largest city in this country. So we thank you for taking the time to come down.

Thank you for the exhibits.

Mr. REISMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator DODD. Mr. Siatos.

Mr. Thomas Siatos, editor and publisher of the publication entitled "Guns & Ammo" of Los Angeles, Calif. Mr. Siatos has been with Guns & Ammo for 7 years, and, according to our information, 6 months ago he was promoted from editor to publisher.

Prior to this time, he was managing editor of Western Outdoor Publishing Co. Mr. Siatos is the editorial director of the Nation's largest monthly newsstand magazine serving the special interests of sportsmen, gun owners, hunters, target shooters, gun collectors, and gun hobbyists.

He is a recognized authority on the technical aspects of firearms, ballistics, and ammunition, I believe. He is the author of numerous articles and manuals on firearms and sport shooting.

What is your address, Mr. Siatos?

STATEMENT OF THOMAS J. SIATOS, PUBLISHER AND EDITORIAL DIRECTOR OF GUNS & AMMO MAGAZINE, LOS ANGELES, CALIF.

Mr. SIATOS. 5959 Hollywood Boulevard, in Los Angeles. Senator DODD. Have I correctly identified you? You are the publisher and editorial director of Guns & Ammo, are you not?

Mr. SIATOS. That is correct, sir.

Senator DODD. The rest of the information was accurate?
Mr. SIATOS. Yes, sir.

Senator DODD. I hope it was.

Now, I have a copy of your statement which we have received this morning, and I have read it hurriedly here while I was trying to listen to the other witness.

The rules of this committee, of all committees of the Senate, are that these statements must be submitted 24 hours in advance. Notwithstanding that, I will let you submit your statement except for the letters which you received from other persons on the subject. I think that we should have the whole letter in its original as you received it, if we are going to have it at all, and not excerpts so I won't allow excerpts from the mails.

If you want to submit the whole letter, that will be received.

It rather interests me that we didn't receive your statement until this morning. I don't know how many times you asked to appear before this committee; do you know?

Mr. SIATOS. I believe twice, Senator.

Senator DODD. Well, we had-maybe through your attorney, but not from you directly-several requests for your appearance.

As you know I finally had to subpena you to get you here this morning.

Mr. SIATOS. Yes, that is correct, Senator.

Senator DODD. And when we offered you a chance to appear voluntarily you refused to do so and so I was happy to give you a subpena.

I think you are the first witness we have had to subpena at these hearings.

Mr. SIATOS. I wanted to cancel my appearance on the advice of counsel, Senator. We felt that our case had pretty well been presented by the National Rifle Association and the National Shooting Sports Foundation. We felt it would be redundant to appear, so on the advice of counsel we attempted to cancel out.

Unfortunately, a bit late.

I must personally apologize for any inconvenience that may have been occasioned to the committee.

Senator DODD. You don't need to apologize. This seems very strange that you should have been so insistent on appearing here and when we gave you the opportunity you refused to do so and said you would only show up if you were subpenaed. You are the first witness to do this.

Mr. SIATOS. There may have been some misunderstanding on that point, Senator.

Senator DODD. All right.

I want to read into the record a telegram which we have received which may shed some light on this situation. It is addressed to Mr. Carl L. Perian, staff director, Subcommittee on Juvenile Delinquency, room 241, Old Senate Office Building, Washington, D.C.

By the way, this was received June 30 at 7:56 a.m., that is yesterday.

This is to inform you that the following letter addressed to Senator Dodd was sent to you at the above address by special delivery airmail at 2:20 p.m. P.d.t. on Wednesday, June 30, 1965:

"Hon. THOMAS J. DODD,

"U.S. Senator from Connecticut,

"Old Senate Office Building, Washington, D.C.

"DEAR SENATOR DODD: I have already expressed to Mr. Carl L. Perian, staff director of your Senate Subcommittee on Juvenile Delinquency, my sincere apologies for the events of yesterday (June 29, 1965) during the course of which I was first informed for my client, Petersen Publications by Mr. Thomas J. Siatos, editor and publisher, Guns and Ammo, shortly after 3 p.m., P.d.t., that he did not wish to appear and testify before your subcommittee at the previously scheduled time of 10 a.m., Wednesday, June 30, 1965.

"As your subcommittee records will show, Mr. Siatos first wired the subcommittee directly and requested permission to appear and to testify on Senate bill 1592 at the May 19, 20, and 21, 1965, public hearings thereon. As your subcommittee records will also show, on May 11, 1965, pursuant to my client's specific request, and in accordance with Mr. Perian's suggestion, I wrote directly to you in behalf of Petersen Publications and requested permission for Mr. Siatos to testify on Senate bill 1592 before your subcommittee at the June 2, 3, and 4, 1965, scheduled public hearings or at public hearings to be scheduled later in June or July 1965.

"Mr. Perian was kind enough to inform me by telephone on Tuesday, June 15, 1965, that my request on behalf of Petersen Publications had been granted and that Mr. Siatos was scheduled to testify before your subcommittee at 10 a.m. on June 25, 1965. This date was later confirmed by your letter of June 15, 1965. Mr. Perian called me. Unfortunately, I missed his call, but later the subcommittee staff informed me that Mr. Siatos' appearance had been postponed until June 30, 1965, and Mr. Siatos had been so informed by Mr. Perian. This June 30, 1965, date was confirmed by me with Petersen Publications.

"On Monday and Tuesday, June 28 and 29, 1965, Mr. Perian called me and indicated that advance copies of Mr. Siatos' prepared statement had not as yet been received by the committee within the required 48 hours.

"On Tuesday, June 29, 1965, I reached Mr. Siatos by telephone. He indicated that copies of the prepared statement had already been mailed to the subcommittee, but that unfortunately he had confused the date on which he was to