Senator Tydings?

Senator TYDINGS. I do not think I have any questions, Senator.
Senator DODD. Senator Fong?

Senator FONG. Yes.

Mr. Bennett, you have had a lot of experience with burglars and robbers. Would you say that a man who did not have a gun would be deterred from committing robbery and committing burglary?

Mr. BENNETT. I think so. I think at least he would not be able to do it so easily. I think he would. I think, as I said, that we would have fewer bank robberies if there were no guns available to them easily.

Senator FONG. In your experience, do you find that most of the robberies are committed with guns?

Mr. BENNETT. Most of the bank robberies are committed with guns, yes, sir.

Senator FONG. And most of the burglaries?

Mr. BENNETT. Well, there are different classifications. Armed robbery, of course, is always committed with a gun, and incidentally, armed robbery always takes a more severe penalty in practically every State in the Union than a robbery by a man without arms.

Senator FONG. If a man did not have a gun, that would deter him a lot, would it not?

Mr. BENNETT. Yes, sir.

Senator DODD. It is my understanding that the oldtime burglar in years past ordinarily did not carry a gun. This changed in the last 25 or 30 years, did it not? I think I am right about that.

Mr. BENNETT. Yes, that is right. There are not many of the oldfashioned bank robbers. I can illustrate one about a very interesting prisoner of ours by the name of Eddie Beens. Eddie Beens was an old-fashioned bank robber who carefully cased all of his jobs, so to speak, and was a very intelligent person. He was very successful and he committed the largest bank robbery up to a few years ago in the history of the country, the robbery of the Lincoln National Bank in Lincoln, Nebr. And he did it alone. He very carefully cased it and he went in and with a gun threatened the cashier, locked the others up in a vault, and proceeded to rifle the bank and walk cooly out. He spent some 15 years in our institution and I got very well acquainted with him, Senator. He thought of an argument that one might use, I suppose, in opposition to this bill that has its humorous aspects. He said I went to see him once in Alcatraz. He said to me, "Mr. Bennett, when are you going to do something for me?"

"Oh, Eddie," I said, "I cannot do anything for you."

"Oh, yes, you can," he said, "you can move me out of this place." I said, "Why should I, Eddie!"

He said: "Now, just think, supposing everybody were honest and there were no bank and armed robbers like me. You would be out of a job. Then all of the many lawyers and judges would be out of jobs, and the locksmiths and the manufacturers of protective devices, they would be in bankruptcy. But most of all, if everybody were honest," he said, "no one would put their money in banks. If there were no banks where people could go to borrow money, the whole economic structure would collapse."

And he said to me, "Well, you know, Mr. Bennett, I never hurt anybody when I robbed a bank and nobody ever lost anything, because I never robbed a bank that was not insured."

Now, we might be able to support opposition to this bill on that kind of argument, Senator.

Senator DODD. Well, it would make more sense than some that we have heard.

Well, you have been very helpful, as I have tried to say before.
Mr. BENNETT. Thank you, sir.

Senator DODD. Now, we have Mr. Herbert T. Jenkins, chief of police in Atlanta, Ga.

Chief Jenkins?

STATEMENT OF HERBERT T. JENKINS, CHIEF OF POLICE, AND PRESIDENT OF THE INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF CHIEFS OF POLICE, ATLANTA, GA.

Senator DODD. Chief Jenkins is president of the International Association of Chiefs of Police in 1965. He is chief of police in Atlanta. He is a widely experienced law enforcement officer, has had many years of service in police work and has been chief of police in Atlanta since 1947.

We consider you an outstanding expert on this subject, Chief Jenkins, and we are very grateful to you for taking time to come up, here this morning. We look forward to hearing your testimony. Mr. JENKINS. Thank you, Senator.

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I am deeply grateful for the opportunity to appear here today to support Senate bill 1592. Those of us in the police department believe the time has come when the regulations and control of firearms must be strengthened to protect the law-abiding citizens by keeping firearms out of the hands of the criminal element and the irresponsible.

I personally believe the adoption of Senate bill 1592 will be a move in the right direction to accomplish this goal. We in law enforce ment are dedicated to total security for the law-abiding citizen and society generally. Yet, we are mindful of individual freedom and we realize, more than anyone else perhaps, when security is strengthened, freedom suffers, and vice versa.

The issue boils down to one simple question: Who is to be protected the irresponsible individual and the criminal, or the hardworking, God-fearing citizen? Ours is a period of transition and change. There was a very good reason for the possession of firearms in rural areas, but today the population is shifting rapidly from rural sections to cities and congested urban areas. Statistics prove the possession of firearms in congested areas is more of a threat than a protection. Returning servicemen brought thousands of firearm souvenirs into this country at the close of World War II. Manufacturers, always alert to public trends, began producing guns which could be bought for a few dollars.

The total result is that almost every person who wants a firearm now, has one or more, regardless of his moral or mental capacity.

Quite often we are called to investigate and report cases of where a youngster is showing a friend the family weapon, the gun fires accidently and seriously wounds or kills an innocent person. Dozens of Atlantans are wounded or killed each year, while cleaning guns which they believe to have been unloaded. This is not a problem which addresses itself solely to the police. Instead, it is a matter which the public generally must consider and weigh in terms of safety and security, as well as freedom.

Firearms were used to commit 98 homicides in the city of Atlanta in the last 17 months. Pistols or short-barrel firearms were the weapon used in 81 of these homicides, and 46 of these weapons were foreign make. Fifty-eight of these homicides occurred in the residence or home, 8 in business establishments, 15 on the public streets. The motives reported in these homicides were 32, domestic quarrels; 21, sudden anger; 23, arguments and fighting; 5, robbery.

Most of these cases have been cleared up by identifying and arresting the perpetrator; in fact, most of the perpetrators remained at the scene of the crime and surrendered to the police.

The murder rate conviction in these cases is very low because of the extenuating and justifiable circumstances. They were not cases of premeditated murder, but were the result of personal combat, and would have ended with a simple altercation, except for the ready availability of the gun. The gun has proven to be seven times more deadly than all other weapons combined. Firearms were used to commit 522 robberies in the city of Atlanta in the last 17 months. Thirteen of these perpetrators arrested were under 17 years of age. This type of crime is not possible without the use of firearms. Firearms were used to commit 404 aggravated assaults in the city of Atlanta in the last 17 months. Ninety-three of the perpetrators were under 21 years of age, and again, most of these cases would have ended as a simple altercation, except for the ready availability of the gun. A total of 1,314 persons were arrested in the city of Atlanta in the last 17 months for carrying concealed weapons, or other illegal use of firearms; 54 of these persons arrested were under 17 years of age.

The racial unrest in the South in recent years has caused an upsurge in the purchase of firearms by both white and Negro citizens. I am informed that some department stores and mail-order houses in Atlanta have, of their own volition, discontinued the sale and shipment of short-barrel firearms.

Chief Leo Blackwell, of Griffin, Ga., reported that about 3 p.m. on April 25, 1964, two automobiles stopped in front of the Cleanwell Pressing Club in Griffin, Ga., a Negro establishment. Golbert R. McGriff, Jr., and two other unidentified white men got out of their automobiles. They proceeded to set up a cross and set it on fire. They immediately left in their automobiles. The two automobiles and five white males were later taken into custody by the Griffin, Ga., police department. A Ku Klux Klan sign and a large supply of firearms and ammunition were found in the car. Mr. Chairman, I brought along a copy of this report and a copy of the picture of all the material that was taken at this time.

Senator DODD. Without objection, it may be included in the record. (The documents referred to were marked "Exhibits Nos. 106 and 107" and are as follows:)

EXHIBIT No. 106

MEMORANDUM-H. JENKINS, Atlanta, GA.

Chief Leo Blackwell, of Griffin, Ga., reported that at approximately 3 p.m. on April 25, 1964, two automobiles stopped in front of the Cleanwell Pressing Club at 125 North Eighth Street, Griffin, Ga. Colbert Raymond McGriff, Jr., and two unidentified white men got out of the automobiles. They proceeded to set up a cross and set fire to same. They immediately left in the automobiles. He stated further that the automobiles were later identified and taken into custody with five white men by the Griffin Police Department. He further stated that a Ku Klux Klan sign and a large supply of ammunition and firearms were found in the automobiles. The automobiles were described as a 1956 Chevrolet with 1964 Georgia license tag 1-3055, and a 1956 Ford with 1964 Georgia license tag 2-4028. He also stated the five white men were charged with violating various city ordinances and pointing a gun at another. These cases are still pending in court, and the subjects have been released on both and were identified as

Oliver C. Sanders, date of birth, January 25, 1909; age 55; route No. 1, Macon, Ga.; white, male, American, 5 feet 8 inches, 175 pounds.

John M. Mitchell, date of birth, July 31, 1928; age 35; route No. 2, Barnesville, Ga.; white, male, American, 5 feet 8 inches, 163 pounds.

Colbert Raymond McGriff, Jr., date of birth, March 30, 1944; age 20; 61 13th Street, Atlanta, Ga.; white, male, American, 6 feet 4 inches, 170 pounds. Thomas Royce Carlyle, date of birth, August 25, 1935; age 28; 507 West Pharr Road, Decatur, Ga.; white, male, American, 6 feet 2 inches, 215 pounds. Allen Lee Bayne, date of birth, January 23, 1928; age 36; 1058 Hampton Street NW., Atlanta, Ga.; white, male, American; height, 5 feet 9 inches, 132 pounds.

EXHIBIT NO. 107.-Weapons seized by Police Department of Griffin, Ga., from five alleged members of the Ku Klux Klan.

Mr. JENKINS. I am informed, Mr. Chairman, that the weapons in this picture, that have the appearance of being a machinegun, are in reality a single-shot weapon and were designed specifically to circum

vent the present Firearms Control Act, and that a special attachment must be installed before it can be used as an automatic weapon.

Traffic in illegal use of firearms in Atlanta has doubled in the last 5 years. The Atlanta Police Department takes into custody in round figures, 2,000 pistols and 200 shotguns and rifles every year. Seventyfive percent of these weapons are claimed and returned to the owner, or their attorney. Twenty-five percent of these weapons, which includes all short-barrel shotguns and rifles, are never claimed and are destroyed by being dropped into the furnace at Atlantic Steel Co., after being held for 6 months. The Atlanta Police Department has in custody today, in round figures, 500 pistols and 50 shotguns and rifles. Eighty percent of these weapons are foreign made and the average value is thought to be about $10 per weapon. All of these weapons came into Georgia by mail order or other means of transportation, since there are no firearm manufacturers in Georgia.

I also brought along some pictures that were made yesterday of the firearms that are actually in custody of the Atlanta Police Department, Mr. Chairman. They will show you a very clear picture of the wide variety and types of guns we are taking into custody.

Senator DODD. Very well. It will be made part of the record. (The documents referred to were marked "Exhibits Nos. 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, and 116" and are as follows:)

EXHIBIT No. 108.-Photograph of weapons seized by the Atlanta, Ga., Police