ons. country feel-recognize that we have a problem in concealable weapAnd I commend the committee and the work the staff has done in this field. And I have said so to Mr. Perian and Senator Dodd many times. I think that we need some legislation in this field. I want to be positive and I hope constructive in this connotation. But my objection to S. 1592 revolves on two primary issues. One is the inclusion of the sporting arm, the long gun, the rifle, and the shotgun, in the inclusion of these provisions. I do not think the committee has made a case for this. And I think that the review of the testimony will show this. The only justifications are those comments contained by Senator Dodd in his opening statement. And that in our view, this should be eliminated from any consideration, because it is just not justified. Secondly, I don't believe that the executive branch of the Government should be vested with the authority in seven different places in this law to further regulate the people of the United States in connection with their ownership and possession of firearms. I think this is a matter which logically, traditionally, should be reserved by the Congress, and that if it takes additional hearings to determine what regulations should be there, that it should be done the Congress should take that time, and to hold the necessary hearings, and to hear from everyone in the United States just how they feel about the regulations and what should be prescribed in this vein. And then I think you would begin to feel the pulse of really how the people in the country feel about gun legislation. Senator BURDICK. Thank you again, Mr. Kimball. Dr. Harmon Leonard, president of the American Society of Arms Collectors. STATEMENT OF DR. HARMON LEONARD, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN SOCIETY OF ARMS COLLECTORS Dr. LEONARD. I am a veterinarian, sir, and current president of the American Society of Arms Collectors. And I am speaking on their behalf. Gentlemen, I am speaking in behalf of the American Society of Arms Collectors, who are representative of the 800,000 arms collectors in the United States. We join with you in expressing our deep concern over the problems with which you have been working in your investigation into the causes of juvenile delinquency, and we are especially concerned when your investigation reveals the association of hand guns and crimes of violence. In this regard, I know of no member of the society who would not support legislation which he feels would be an effective deterrent to crime. The primary interest of the arms collector in the American Society lies in antique and historical arms. These include 16th century match locks, Revolutionary War flint locks, Civil War musket, and the arms that settled and established law in our western lands. In the 20 years I have been collecting arms, I do not know nor have I heard of one of these collector arms being used in a crime. Nor would the remote possible incidence in which one might have been involved be any more incriminating than any handy object which might be used. Therefore, we earnestly and sincerely request your initial exclusion to the entire act antique, historical, and collector arms. As an antiquarian interested in the historical association of the weapons used in our war for independence and the subsequent survival of our Nation, I consider the proposed restrictions placed on modern imported weapons and cheap available mail order and guns as inapplicable to antiques arms, to be specific the majority of colonial, revolutionary, and Civil War muskets have bore diameter in excess of .50 caliber and thus would be classified as destructive devices along with automatic tank rifles, bazookas, and grenades. Exclusion of these could be dependent on the whim of an agent of the Secretary of Treasury. These arms exist by the thousands in homes as decorators, in museums, historical societies, and are the stock in trade of hundreds of antique dealers throughout the land. The fine pair of flint lock pistols owned by George Washington now in the West Point Museum would be classified as destructive devices. Section 2 of the bill S. 1592 would make it unlawful to ship an antique arm to anyone except a licensed dealer or importer. This would be a severe blow to all collectors and to many of our leading institutions; for example, in 1966 the Wadsworth Antheneum in Hartford, Conn., in conjunction with the Metropolitan Museum of Art is planning an ambitions project to display hundreds of highly engraved historical arms. The theme of this exhibition is the engraving of arms, from the artistic point of view. If S. 1592 is passed as presented, this cultural and educational display will, of course, be abandoned. The director of this project has informed me that neither the Antheneum nor the Metropolitan Museum of Art would apply for a dealer's license and it would not be expected of the many collectors throughout the country who would normally ship their loan display pieces into the museums. Two of the many other institutions which would be forced to discontinue their loaned arms exhibits are the Whitney Gallery of Western Art in Cody, Wyo., and the Ohio Historical Society in Columbus, Ohio, which is currently displaying Kentucky rifles, most of which are shipped from collectors. The historical arms collector would be greatly handicapped and indeed forced to abandon his recreational pursuits by being restricted to purchase or exchange only with antique arms dealers from his State. As an example only two of the Kentucky rifles in my collection were obtained by me in Connecticut. It has been a source of many hours of enjoyment to visit other collectors and dealers in antique arms throughout the country while vacationing and either exchange or buy new pieces for my collection. This is the heart of any collecting activity, as enjoyed by millions of Americans, whether they collect stamps, coins, glass, or classical art. Unless collector weapons are excluded from S. 1592 thousands of antique dealers who frequently sell these old weapons for decorators and museum pieces will be forced to become licensed arms dealers. It seems quite feasible and logical to provide exclusion for this class of arms. England, with stringent firearms regulations allows free trade in antique arms and throughout Western Europe and even in Communist Yugoslavia antique arms may be readily purchased. Within the wording of section 3 lies the reality of registration—once again there is not exclusion of antique guns. Aside from my interests as a collector, I enjoy hunting and am planning this fall another western hunting trip. S. 1592 would prevent my shipping my sporting rifle. There are Federal regulations which prohibit carrying firearms in the cabin of a plane. As baggage, would my rifle be subject to consideration as being transported by a common carrier? I have no dealer's license, nor does it seem logical I should be forced into applying for one. A free government is dependent on mutual trust between the citizen and his government. On the one hand, the citizen is expected to obey the law and its spirit; by the same token, the responsible citizen can expect that he will not be subjected to unnecessary legislative restraining measures which cause unjust harassment, and can in reality disturb the faith in our democratic process. Senator BURDICK. Thank you very much. I have been advised that the chairman is concerned about this section. He is working on some language. Dr. LEONARD. I am sorry Senator Dodd is not here. Me being a native of his home State, I would have liked to talk with him. I would like to invite him to my home to see my collection. I think he would get the feelings of the arms collectors. I feel this should be excluded from the measure. It is an important thing to the collectors and the historical societies and museums all across the land. And they very definitely should be excluded, sir. Senator BURDICK. Thank you very much. Dr. LEONARD. Incidentally, I have some photographs here of some of these fine old engraved arms. I would like to leave them for you. They are from the pages of the American Rifle Association magazine. Some are photographs of engraved arms in the Winchester Museum. Senator BURDICK. They will be received as exhibits. (The photographs referred to were marked "Exhibit No. 70", and will be found in the subcommittee files.) We will adjourn now until the call of the Chair. (Whereupon, at 12:20 p.m., the subcommittee recessed, subject to the call of the Chair.) TO AMEND THE FEDERAL FIREARMS ACT WEDNESDAY, JUNE 2, 1965 U.S. SENATE, SUBCOMMITTEE ON JUVENILE DELINQUENCY Washington, D.C. The subcommittee (composed of Senators Dodd, Hart, Bayh, Burdick, Tydings, Hruska, Fong, and Javits) met, pursuant to notice, at 10:40 a.m., in room 318, Old Senate Office Building, Senator Thomas J. Dodd, presiding. Present: Senators Dodd and Burdick. Also present: Carl L. Perian, staff director; and William C. Mooney, chief investigator. Senator DODD. I will call this meeting to order. This morning we resume hearings on S. 1592, a bill to amend the Federal Firearms Act. Recently arrangements were made to refer all pending firearms legislation before the Senate to this subcommittee so that we may consider the broad range of bills presently before this Congress. (The documents referred to were marked "Exhibits Nos. 2, 3, and 4," and will be found on pp. 12, 15, and 16. As I indicated in my opening statement last week, we have no intention of creating undue hardships for the Nation's hunters, sportsmen, and gun collectors through this legislation. Last week there was ample evidence that the present provisions of the bill might possibly create hardships on the antique gun collectors of this country and that certain provisions relating to small-bore ammunition might create difficulties in rural communities and in certain isolated areas. I have, therefore, drafted amending legislation covering both of these points which, I am sure, will meet with the approval of those who objected to these particular provisions during our initial hearing. I am sure the subcommittee will approve them, and I expect the full committee will as well. During this set of hearings, we will continue to take testimony which will document the need for the major goals of this legislation; that is, control over the mail-order sale of guns, control of over-thecounter sales to out-of-State persons, and control over foreign imports, especially those that fall in the heavy weapons categories. In relation to this last section of the bill, I would like to briefly describe one part of the committee's activities during recent months. I will not reveal exact dates and places in order to guarantee the anonymity of one of the principals. Within the last 6 months, at my direction, one of the principals in this case entered into correspondence with the so-called Minutemen, |