Senator JAVITS. Sergeant, you might not be the right person to ask about this, but I wonder if any connection has been established between the presence of these heavy weapons and the existence of the so-called paramilitary groups or training groups, generally known as extremists, like Minutemen and any organization of that character?

Senator DODD. I might help Senator Javits. This morning the attorney general of California testified at considerable length about this. Senator JAVITS. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I had six committee meetings this morning.

Senator DODD. I only wanted to say that we have had very interesting testimony on this.

Would you answer that, please, Sergeant?

Mr. GONZALEZ. From Pennsylvania four mortars and an antitank gun were sent to a man in Hollywood who gave his name as Julius Eichman. We went out and saw the weapons. We waited to talk to Mr. Eichman, if there is such a person called Julius Eichman in Los Angeles. And approximately 15 days later he sent a young man who just gave his name as Paul Hunt, stating that he was picking up the weapons for Mr. Eichman, and that Mr. Eichman was engaged in the movie business, and he needed them for his movie work.

And we have the case of Joseph Carey, who is a fugitive now, and a declared Minuteman, who had in his possession full automatic weapons.

We have the case of Robert Romero, who had in his possession land mines, dynamite, blasting caps, all types of smoke grenades, hand grenades, teargas grenades.

We have the case of Harry Schlapia, who had gun kits, gas decontamination kits, and all types of equipment that are not used in any type of hunting or target shooting activity.

Senator JAVITS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator DODD. Thank you, Sergeant, for your testimony.

(At this point in the record a report dated November 23, 1963, prepared by Sgt. T. Gonzales on an investigation of the weapon used in the assassination of President Kennedy was inserted into the record on pp. 186 and 187.)

Mr. Harry R. Woodward.

Mr. Woodward, Senator Dominick told me that you were anxious to be heard today. We didn't have you scheduled, but we are glad to accommodate you in the few minutes we have remaining. We are not allowed to sit while the Senate is in session this afternoon, but I do want to hear you as fully as we can. And if we don't have time to put your whole statement in, we would be glad to have you submit it. Please be seated. You are very welcome. We will be glad to hear from you.

I should say for the record that Mr. Harry R. Woodward is the director of the Colorado Game, Fish, and Parks Commission.

STATEMENT OF HARRY R. WOODWARD, DIRECTOR, COLORADO GAME, FISH, AND PARKS COMMISSION

Mr. WOODWARD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee.

I appreciate this privilege of appearing before you so that I can get back to my regular duties.

Reporting officers received a call from Special Agent Darwin D. Horn, U.S. Secret Service, assigned to the Los Angeles office, phone 688-4830, requesting assistance in locating the distributor of the scope used on the rifle that was used in the assasination of President Kennedy. The scope did not have a serial number but bore the following inscription in four lines:

Officers were informed by Agent Horn that the scope was mounted 1940 Italian 6.5MM bolt action Mannlicher-Carcano carbine, Ser #C2766. This carbine is also known as a Terni. It was left on the scene of the shooting. An inquiry made of several contacts disclosed that the firm that originally distributed this type of scope was owned by John F. Arnold & Robert Penny. Mr. Penny was contacted at his home, 1527 Royal Oaks Drive, Bradbury, Calif., phone EL 73988 EL 72548. He stated that the scope was manufactured in Japan and had not been sold separately but sold as a unit attached to a rifle. He stated that around 1960 they sold all the manufacturing, importing and distributing rights to Martin B. Retting, Inc., 11029 Washington Blvd., Culver City, phone UP 01589, It was Mr. Penny's belief that Martin Retting was putting the scope on the Mannlicher-Carcano carbines.

Mr. Martin Retting and Mr. Jim Thompson of the Martin Retting Co. were interrogated by Agent Horn, Lt. Pena and Sgt. Gonsales. Both Mr. Retting & Mr. Thompson stated that they owned all the rights to the Ordinance Optics Scope. They stated that they sold large quantities of the scope to Klein's Sporting Goods, 227 W. Washington St., Chicago 6, Ill. The central office of Klein's is located 4540 W. Madison, Chicago 24, Ill. Klein's is a large mail order fire dealing in firearms. Mr. Retting advised the investigating officers that Klein's was the only firm to his knowledge that was mounting the scopes on the Mannlicher-Carcano carbines. He showed us a copy of Klein's ad in The American Rifleman Magazine of October 1963 bearing a picture of the scope mounted on the carbine. It is advertised for $19.95, carbine with the scope. To his knowledge the scope is not sold by itself but is sold as a package deal only. The ad has an order form which must be filled in by the purchaser. Mr. Retting told us that his firm mounts the scope on the Argentine Mauser, the Swiss Schmidt-Rubin and the British Enfield Rifles only. He stated that he has very few Mannlicher-Carcano carbines and has not sold any by mail order; that he has sold about 20 without the scope over the counter.

Mr. Retting also informed officers that if Western cartridges had been
used and had been purchased by mail order it would simplify tracing
the ammunition. There are very few firms in the U.S. that handle
the new type Western military type ammunition.

Agent Horn made a telephonic report to his office from the Martin
Retting premises. He advised his office of the possibility that the
order blank filled out by the suspect might be filed in Klein's
records.

Mr. Retting furnished this office with samples of the type of ammunition used. This ammunition and a copy of the ad is booked at Central Property.

I appear before you to be in opposition to S. 1592 because of the marked adverse effect this legislation will have on one of the Nation's great hunting States, three basic principles on which I and the commission I represent oppose this legislation, and to point out several reasons why this legislation as written will not achieve the results for which it was conceived.

Senator DODD. Go right ahead and tell us. those points in particular.

You won't mind if I interrupt you?

Mr. WOODWARD. That is perfectly all right, sir.

I would like to hear

Colorado is a great hunting State and this form of outdoor recreation represents a very tangible and important factor in its economy. Last fall, 114,000 nonresidents hunted in Colorado, paying $3,117,000 for hunting licenses. This represents 66 percent of all revenues derived from hunting and 50 percent of total revenues realized by the Colorado Game, Fish, and Parks Department in 1964.

Since this department is financed entirely by license revenues, fines, and taxes on sporting goods, anything that affects hunting or fishing, and especially hunting or fishing by nonresidents, deals a body blow to this department's self-financing ability.

Senator DODD. Can you point out anything in this bill that will restrict any hunter in Colorado paying his license from doing what he has been doing right along?

Mr. WOODWARD. Senator, we are concerned with the question of interstate traffic and the permission of an individual to transport his firearms interstate.

Senator DODD. That is what I am talking about. You point out to me anything in this bill which says he can't carry his shotgun or rifle into Colorado.

Mr. WOODWARD. We are concerned here that the powers of the Secretary of the Treasury could be construed to the point that regulations, that his regulations could make it difficult, if not impossible, to

do this.

Senator DODD. You are not serious about that? Are you saying that the Secretary of the Treasury could by regulation write into this legislation something that is not in it?

Mr. WOODWARD. He could make it most difficult for a man to get a permit.

Senator DODD. I can say only what the Secretary and the Attorney General said yesterday, that is preposterous. You heard him when you were here yesterday say that the applicant is protected by the Administrative Procedure Act, and that is what our courts are set up for. He has to apply the rule of reason that if the applicant doesn't agree with his judgment, he has an appeal; he has more than one.

But in any event the most important thing I want to point out here is that you obviously haven't read the bill if you think that any word of that would prevent a sportsman from going to your State with a rifle and shotgun and go hunting. There is just no such thing in the bill.

Mr. WOODWARD. Well, it is obvious, Senator, that we are anxious about this provision and how it might be implemented in terms of administrative procedure.