with an oil yield of at least 15 gallons per ton of shale, or 750 barrels to the

acre.

It is our belief, gentlemen, in view of the rather intensive study which has been made of this oil shale formation, that this rule is not practically applicable to the conditions with which we are confronted.

We do not believe, in the first place, that the oil shale deposit from its very nature is susceptible to the application of such a standard.

In the second place, it is our belief that this rule in effect seeks to establish as a basis of discovery the exposure of a bed which would produce oil in commercial quantities; that is, to fix the cemmercial value of the ore disclosed as a basis for discovery. This in effect is done arbitrarily at a time when no one knows what commercial oil shale will be. There are not now in operation in this country, I think, on any considerable scale at least, commercial operations in oil shale. The effect of the rule is contrary, as we view it, to the thoughts and practices of the miners themselves since the beginning of the mining industry in America. They have always recognized among themselves and respected a discovery such as in their opinion justified the ordinary prudent man in spending his time and money in following the ore with a reasonable expectation of success.

It was under this old rule, which was intiated among the miners, and which has received the sanction of this Department and of the courts, that the mining industry of America was created and has been builded until the rule has gained what we believed to be the dignity of a rule of property. We believe that the rights acquired under it in good faith should be looked upon as vested rights. And it was under this rule, if you please, gentlemen, and in effect at the invitation of this department as evidenced by letters written to numerous persons, that the oil shale prospectors went out upon those barren hills 7, 8, or 9 or 10 years ago and made the oil shale locations-locations which they have attempted to maintain in the intervening years at considerable expense of time and of effort.

And it is our belief that the best standard by which to judge what an ordinary prudent man would have done back in those days is to view the actions actually taken by ordinary prudent men at that time and under those circumstances.

As a matter of scientific knowledge the rule we believe is somewhat inconsistent in itself because it is impossible, gentlemen-(so the scientists who will speak to you today will say)-to produce 1,500 barrels of oil from an acre of shale 1 foot in thickness which will produce 15 gallons to the ton; that if you got every drop of oil from that 1 foot of shale you could not secure more than approximately 1,142 barrels.

So that the rule in itself is rather contradictory and not susceptible of practical operation and application, and all of the questions with which we have to deal here are more or less practical in their nature. The basis for the consideration of any problem with reference to oil shale in these three States, at least, is a study of the nature and character of the deposit in which the oil shales occur, and we hope to be able to show during the course of this hearing that the Green Giver formation in the States which I have mentioned is synonymous with oil shale; that this huge deposit is everywhere one ore body which in the light of experiments which have been conducted in Colorado recently will yield oil in varying quantities from each and every section or zone of the entire formation; that it is one mountain, if you please, of similar material laid down under similar climatic conditions by the waters, each and every section or zone of which is impregnated in some degree with those organic hydrocarbon materials which under destructive distillation will yield oil. It is not uniform in color or richness, but it is ore on its every part. You may speak of it as a layer or a series of layers, as a bed or a series of beds, as one stratum or as a series of strata; and it is immaterial which term you apply because in whatever form it lies it is all mineral bearing. The formation may be identified in its every section by its distinct fossils, notably fossil insects.

And so we believe, gentlemen, that when you have discovered visually exposed within the four corners of a claim, oil shale which you may identify as a part of the Green River formation, then you have discovered that enormous bed, or deposit of ore, which must be the foundation and very basis of any operations that are ever conducted in oil shales in those three States.

In order to bring more clearly to your attention this question, which to us is all-important, mining engineers of the highest standing will speak

to you to-day concerning the methods to be employed, in their opinion, in mining and handling this gigantic deposit of ore. In the early days of the study of this formation the geologists were wont to look upon it as a few layers of shale of some richness separated entirely from other portions of the Green River formation by barren streaks or zones of foreign materials. The mining engineers, following the geologists in their conception of this thing, looked at it from the viewpoint of a selective mining problem; that is, to mine only the rich or richest bed or stratum; if you care to view it in that way, of some 10, 12, or 20 feet in thickness-that bed or stratum that would produce the most oil-believing that the rest of the formation was of little value. And so we have discussions of, and papers written about, the selective system of mining this property, and it was compared to the coal problem, Then when the geologists began to make a more intensive study of the problem and began to accumulate more information and knowledge about the deposit they found that they had been mistaken in their original position and that the whole formation was an ore bed; that it all carried considerable mineral value; and then the mining engineers, following this lead of the geologists, began to look at the formation in the light of wholesale mining methods-methods which would move the mountain in effect-and they have determined, if you please, that they can mine sections of the formation of 500 or 600 feet in one operation at a lower mining cost per gallon of oil produced than the cost of mining one section of the richest ore. They have determined that if they use these wholesale methods of mining they will conserve the whole mineral deposit, while by the use of a selective system taking out 10 or 12 feet of the richest ore the rest of the ore would become dislodged and displaced so that we might never be able to recover it. When we consider, gentlemen, that this richest zone, which is commonly known as the Mahogany zone of shale, contains only approximately 6 per cent of the mineral in the formation, we can realize what a waste of natural resources it would be to discard and forever lay aside our opportunity to make use of the remaining 94 per cent.

We believe that in the light of the recent knowledge gained of this deposit the department will come to the conclusion that the oil shales are not susceptible to the same rules or regulations which have been applied to oil and gas deposits. We believe there is no similarity between the two forms of mineral deposits which justifies the subjection of them to the same consideration or the regulation of them under the same special law.

Secretary WORK. With that applying to oil and gas or that applying to minerals as before the act of 1920?

Mr. HAWLEY. We believe that the general regultaions which have been applied to other forms of mineral deposit through the years are far more applicable to the oil shales than are the oil and gas regulations, because we do not have the hazards here that we have in connection with the oil and gas-we do not have a deposit which is fugitive and migratory when the trap in which it occurs is opened by a well. One man can not drain another man's mineral through an opening in the ground. The oil shales are fixed and in place and certain as to position and as to richness-just as fixed and as certain as are the coal deposits of this country.

And while there might be reasons for saying something about commercial value when we discuss oil and gas placers, because of the uncertainty which exists in connection with that form of mineral deposit-because of the fact that the reservoirs in which oil and gas usually occur (sandstone or porous limestone) are not even and uniform as to porosity or saturation, because we have vast barren areas in many of the most productive oil and gas fields, which conditions do not exist in the oil shales at all-we feel that we should not be governed in the light of the rules and regulations which are applicable to oil and gas, and that there is no jurisdiction for applying a commercial standard to oil shale discoveries.

We have here, if you please, a condition which is somewhat similar to that considered by the miners and by this department, and later by the Supreme Court of this country in connection with the so-called blanket veins in the Leadville district. We have here an enormous horizontal lying blanket deposit of mineral, and you might consider this, and you might govern your action in connection with the deposit more logically, perhaps, on the basis of the consideration which you gave the Leadville cases than you could under the oil and gas regulations.

Now, gentlemen, there have come here to speak to you on these various phases of this subject, which we think of so much importance, the men whom we believe are the best qualified to speak. Mr. Winchester, a geologist who perhaps has given as much, if not more, thought to this subject than any other geologist in the country, is to discuss some of the features of the geology. Mr. Carroll and Mr. Mitke, who have recently conducted investigations of the Green River formation, and both of whom are mining engineers of unquestioned integrity and outstanding ability, will discuss certain features of the question. Mr. Russell, another prominent mining engineer, has given much thought to the oil shales, and will have some ideas to advance; and there are other mining engineers whose views will be expressed. After the scientists have had their say and Attorney General Boatright has spoken to you in the interest of his State and Congressman Winter of the interest that his State has in this matter, the lawyers-one or two, perhaps, or more if there are others here who wish to-will speak rather briefly upon the practical features of the law to be applied here, but we will not tire you with long drawn out supertechnical discussions of legal problems.

Now Attorney General Boatright has a statement he would like to make. Hon. WILLIAM L. BOATRIGHT, Attorney General of Colorado: I am here, Mr. Secretary, at the request of His Excellency, the Governor, and Doctor Coolbough, president of the Colorado State School of Mines, and I have some data here prepared by Lester Grant, dean of the School of Mines, and professor of mining, which I desire to present, and to give a few very brief remarks with reference to the interest which I feel that the State has in this problem. Mr. Grant says in a letter dated November 24, of which the original ought to be in your file:

The Hon. HUBERT WORK,

COLORADO SCHOOL OF MINES, Golden, Colo., November 24, 1926.

Secretary of the Interior, Washington, D. C.

SIR: We have had notice of the hearing to be held before you on December 1, 1926, with reference to the question of a discovery sufficient to validate an oil-shale placer location.

Considering the widespread interest in Colorado in oil shale matters, you may be sure that the Colorado School of Mines is desirous of keeping in close touch with oil-shale problems. We hoped to have a representative present at the hearing, but an important meeting in Denver on the date set for the hearing has prevented attendance. Consequently, we take the liberty of expressing our views on this subject in a letter.

The writer has had occasion to examine the briefs filed by the contestant, the contestee, and the intervenor, in the case of Freeman v. Summers, in which case a special hearing was had in Glenwood Springs last January. It is in this case, we understand, that the question of oil-shale discovery has been raised.

To my mind, each of these briefs contains a very great amount of matter that is irrelevant and immaterial. I am astonished at the facetious language used by the attorney for the intervenor; this brief is so drawn as to immediately convey the idea of extreme prejudice.

It would seem to me wise to base the case upon a clear statement of facts and the matter of good faith on the part of the locators. It may be well to review the conditions that evidently obtained at the time that the locations were made, viz:

1. The locators were desirous of obtaining title to this land in order to acquire the oil shale beneath its surface.

2. The United States Government required that location be made under the laws governing the location of placer claims.

3. By reason of exposures in deep canyons in this terrain there was complete geological evidence that the oil shales comprising the Green River formation passed under large areas of mesa or table-land. This statement is sustained by statements in the bulletins of the United States Geological Survey.

4. It was the intent of all locators to claim mining rights to all oil shale lying beneath the surface and within the vertical planes through the boundaries of their locations, whether these claims were in or adjacent to the canyons, or comparatively distant therefrom on the high lands between the canyons.

The United States did not, at the time most of the oil-shale locations were made, require that discovery show a cross section of the formation containing the oil shale, nor that such deep-seated shales need be exposed on the property of the locator. If such was the intention, it is not recorded in any act of Congress nor implied in any rulings of the Land Office that have come to my attention.

5. To make a valid discovery on a placer location it has generally been necessary to show evidence of the mineral sought by actual discovery upon the location. On the land in question it seems, from statements made in the bulletins of the United States Geological Survey, that there is no controversy regarding the presence of oil shale on the surface, and that more or less oil could be distilled from such surface shales.

6. Because of the especially good exposures of the formation in the canyons before mentioned there could be little question of the presence of the oil shales underneath the tablelands, and no real doubt in the mind of any sane person, Government official or otherwise, that locations were made with the intent to acquire the right to work any and all oil shale which might at some future time become of value sufficient to warrant its exploitation. There is nothing, so far as I am aware, in any act of Congress to justify an arbitrary ruling regarding any specific content of oil that could be distilled from this shale. Neither have specific values of other mineral deposits, likewise open to location as placer claims, been stated by act of Congress. Happily, in order that our public lands might not be acquired by locators who had no intent to work the property for the minerals which they located or pretended to locate, our courts have ruled in this matter, and have stated that a showing must exist such that a man of prudence and good judgment would be justified in the exploitation of the property. It may be definitely stated that no deposits in the vicinity of the claims in question have yet been worked at a profit, and that, therefore, there can be no figure assumed as a commercially profitable content of oil in the shale. It is impossible to say what content will become commercially profitable in the future.

It can be further definitely stated that, because of the exposures in the canyons, there is a sufficient showing to warrant any man of prudence and good judgment in believing that he would find under the higher table-lands deposits similar to, if not identical with, the shales exposed in the canyons. I wish to call your attention to bulletin 94, United States Bureau of Mines, United States Mining Statutes, Annotated, wherein on page 512 we find"While there must be some gold found within the limits of land located as a placer gold claim, it can not be said in advance as a matter of law how much must be found in order to warrant the court or jury in finding that there was in fact a discovery within the meaning of this section, but the question must be decided not only with reference to the gold actually found within the limits of the claim located but also with regard to its situation in relation to other known valuable deposits of placer gold and its conformity to the general geological features of such deposits. (Lange v. Robinson, 148 Fed. 799, pp. 801, 804), Charlton v. Kelley, 156 Fed. 433, p. 436.)

"It is a sufficient discovery to justify the location of a placer gold mining claim in Alaska where the pay streak is known to be either upon or near the bedrock and where such rock is from 125 to 150 feet below the surface where an experienced miner washes a few pans of the sediment deposited along the sides of a creek and finds in each small particles or colors of gold, and where placer gold in paying quantities has been found upon the bedrock on a tributary to such creek within a mile or so of the claim located. (Lange v. Robinson, 148 Fed. 799, 801, 804), (See Charlton v. Kelley, 156 Fed. 433, p. 436.) "Under this section a location of placer ground does not become valid until a discovery of mineral within the limits of the claim, and not a discovery of a vein or lode, but of placer mineral; but the strictness as to proof of discovery in lode claims is not required in placer claims. (Cook v. Johnson, 3 Alaska 506, p. 533.) "

I believe there can be no question of good faith on the part of the locators of this land. Discovery on surface of any part of the oil-shale formation would lead any sane man to believe in the existence of the underlying portion of the formation. The briefs are largely taken up with quibbles about sampling and qualifications of witnesses which, it seems to me, is beside the question. I strongly recommend that this question be considered by your department as one of good faith on the part of the locator in showing that oil shale existed on the land located, and that no arbitrary ruling to the effect that any

specific content of oil should necessarily be shown, be adopted. I believe it manifestly unjust that such an arbitrary ruling should be inaugurated, because of the geological conditions which exist in the oil-shale region.

This industry is one to be developed in the future, and one in which the pioneer workers must necessarily spend large amounts of money, in the development of methods of mining and of treatment, long before a commercially profitable enterprise is assured.

In view of this situation, should the old rules of law and customs of miners be circumscribed or restricted? Should not every reasonable encouragement be offered men of good faith, who, by the expenditure of their funds and time, are making an honest effort to put upon a stable basis an industry which may become one of the really substantial industries of the Mountain States? It is our understanding that this is in keeping with the true spirit of the mining laws.

Very respectfully,

LESTER S. GRANT,

Dean Colorado School of Mines.

Mr. BOATRIGHT (continuing:) Now, what is the interest which Colorado has in this matter? To those of you who are not familiar with the State I may say that in the last 20 years, with a line drawn through Colorado from north to south, going through Fort Collins, Loveland, Denver, Colorado Springs, and Pueblo, we find that the western portion, containing practically all of the mining territory of the State of Colorado-a mountainous region-has in the last 20 years approximately stood still or has retarded in developnrent and in population, while on the other hand the eastern sectionwhich is approximately the same in area-shows a very marked multiple of development in both material resources and in population. Any industry or any development of the natural resources of this State which will bring people to the State and which will furnish them employment is of course exceedingly desirable, but particularly is it desirable in this western section of the State for the following reason: That transportation in this section is very difficult. All freight products of this region must be raised over the mountains, approximately a mile above the surface at that point, in order to get them to the places of distribution by railroad or otherwise. Necessarily there is a very high freight rate. There is a large stock raising section included within these boundaries. There is a wonderful fruit-raising section, vegetables and various other products which are being raised and for which there is no market adequate to consume them. Year after year there has been destroyed, for lack of consumption or methods of getting these products to market, trainload after trainload of the finest fruits and vegetables and other commodities that can be raised any place.

In the development of an industry such as the oil shale industry we believe that if the same can be developed as engineers indicate it can be, this western section will then become prosperous, and that not only will they produce a direct commodity which is in use and in demand throughout the country but that by reason of the production of this very commodity they will create a market for all of these other commodities which are raised on the western slope and which can not be taken out at an advantage. Therefore you can readily see from this very brief picture that Colorado is vitally interested in the development of these immense beds of oil shale.

Finally, what is the desire of Colorado in this matter? The secretary has very kindly called attention to a desire that criticism, if any there be, be made to the department so that the same may be carefully checked. That of itself is very desirable, if such there be. If we could to-day bring into this room those who are interested from every viewpoint in the shale industry and allow them to see some of the problems which the honorable secretary and his advisers and helpers have to contend with in all of this varied business, I think that they would at once realize some of the problems confronting this side of this picture. On the other hand, it might not be amiss (and in fact to my mind would be very desirable) if we could in our mind's eye at least have this picture of the real difficulties, the real problems which these people of this territory, which is vast in itself, brought to the attention and thoroughly realized and appreciated by the secretary and his board. And now I do not mean to say by that that you do not appreciate it, but I do mean to say this: That those of us who are not actually on the ground day in and day out and year in and