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The CHAIRMAN. Are you through, Mr. Frohnhoefer?

Mr. FROHNHOEFER. Yes, sir; I am through as far as I am concerned.

The CHAIRMAN. You will be excused, then. Are there any other parties here who desire to speak on the subject of engraving

STATEMENT OF MR. NATHAN BURKAN, REPRESENTING THE

MUSIC PUBLISHERS' ASSOCIATION.

Mr. BURKAN. On behalf of the Music Publishers' Association I desire to state that this matter is of interest to publishers dealing in foreign publications, because it is cheaper to have American publications engraved in this country than to send the manuscripts from this country to Europe and then have the plates engraved there and the scores printed there and shipped to America.

Representative CURRIER. That is so with books, is it not? You could produce them cheaper over there than you could produce them here, could you not?

Mr. BURKAN. But not in music. I do not know anything about books, but I am speaking of the musical proposition. I do not know of a case, and I do not think the former speaker can point out a single instance where that was actually done. I would like to have him furnish me the name of a single American publisher

Representative CURRIER. The former speaker has certainly said he knew of such an instance, where 200 plates came through.

Mr. BURKAN. Will he state the name of the person or the name of the firm ?

Representative CURRIER. Naturally he will not.

Mr. BURKAN. The mere statement that he knows, unless he states the name of the party or somebody who actually did ship the plates, is not evidence of any fact.

Representative CURRIER. He might have reasons for not giving the name. He can give the name if he cares to.

Mr. BURKAN. Have you any reason for not giving the name?
Mr. FROHNHOEFER. I don't want to lose my job.

Mr. BURKAN. I want to state, with all due respect, that I do not believe this gentleman's statement is correct, because there is not an American music publisher who is publishing compositions written in this country who has ever sent the manuscript abroad to have the plates engraved. It is true there are publishers in this country representing foreign houses who sell in this country music that is published and printed on the other side, because the demand is not sufficiently great to warrant the expenditure of money in engraving plates and printing American editions. That is a question that interests principally foreign publishers.

Representative CURRIER. If this is a question between the American workingman and the foreign publisher, it will not take me a great while to reach a conclusion.

Representative LEGARE. If your contention is correct, what harm could this do your people?

Mr. BURKAN. It would do harm in the case of a foreign publisher. For example, take one of the foreign operas; there is very little demand for that opera in this country, and he can not sell more than

10 or 12 scores. Does it pay to have special plates engraved in this country for the purpose of selling 10 or 12 scores?

Representative LEGARE. You said it was cheaper to do it.

Mr. BURKAN. Yes, if he is going to sell 2,000 or 3,000 scores. But does it pay to print 5 or 6 or 10 scores? Where there is a sale of 200,000 or 300,000 copies of a single publication, then it pays; but in a case where the sale is limited to 5 or 6 or 12 copies it does not pay. This is a question that principally interests the foreign publisher.

Representative CURRIER. We are not sitting here to represent the foreign publisher.

Mr. BURKAN. But these publishers have certain rights, and I believe the committee are willing to hear these men. I ask that they be given a chance to offer some memorandum or argument on the proposition. I am not prepared to discuss the matter at this time, because the amendment offered is in the nature of a surprise. I think there are some publishers who desire to be heard in this matter, but they are not here. So far as my clients are concerned, they do not care whether it goes in the bill or not.

Representative CURRIER. Then you personally represent nobody?

Mr. BURKAN. I represent an association, and there may be in the association two or three or four or five men who want to be heard on this proposition. I simply ask that these men be given an opportunity to submit a memorandum or appear in person to offer arguments on this proposition.

The Chairman. We will hear them, Mr. Burkan, when they come here.

Mr. BURKAN. Will you give them an opportunity to be heard ?

The CHAIRMAN. Certainly; they will have an opportunity to-morrow to speak on this proposition.

Mr. W. B. HALE. Mr. Chairman, is the manufacturing clause up generally?

The CHAIRMAN. Before we take that question up, Mr. Walker said he would like to speak on question under discussion. Will Mr. Walker say what he has to say at the present time?

STATEMENT OF MR. ALBERT H. WALKER.

Mr. WALKER. Sections 13, 16, and 17 of the Currier bill and of the Smoot bill propose to protect American workmen against foreign competition by providing that certain classes of materials covered by copyrights in this country shall be manufactured in this country.

Representative CURRIER. All the bills are identical in that respect, are they not?

Mr. WALKER. No; there is a material difference between the Smoot bill and the Currier bill, on the one hand, and the Barchfeld bill and the Kittredge bill on the other. I wish to say to the committee that none of those sections appear to me to be drawn by anybody who understood the different methods of manufacture sought to be protected.

Representative CURRIER. I might say we have it in mind, if those sections go through, to amend them.

Mr. WALKER. I wish to state what appears to me to be the situation of affairs, and that situation is not disclosed in any of the bills. All the bills propose to give the American workman the monopoly of setting type. They also propose to give to the American workman

the monopoly of making stereotyped plates from that type. The Smoot bill and the Currier bill take one step in addition and propose to give the American workman the monopoly of lithography, and go no farther. The Kittredge bill and the Barchfeld bill do all that the Smoot bill and the Currier bill propose to do, and go one step farther and propose to give them photo-engraving. Photo-engraving does not include the kind of engraving that is near the heart of the young gentleman who spoke a little while ago, because that is hand engraving. Further than that, photo-engraving does not include all kinds of process engraving, because there are methods of full mechanical printing which do not come under the head of photo-engraving.

If the committee desires to give the American workman the monopoly of all kinds of business, it can do so by substituting in section 16, page 8, lines 27 and 28, the word "other" for the word “lithographic.” Then the whole subject will be surrounded, because the word "process" will include lithographic process, photo-engraving process, as mentioned by Mr. Barchfeld, and will include full methods of mechanical printing not mentioned by any of the bills. It will include also hand engraving, except music.

The CHAIRMAN. You propose to strike out the word "lithographic" and say "other processes?'

Mr. WALKER. Wherever the word "lithographic” occurs insert the word “other," and wherever the word "lithography” occurs use some other word. The CHAIRMAN. In line 2 strike out the word "lithographic ?” Mr. WALKER. Yes, and substitute the word "other." Representative CURRIER. May I ask a question for information? Mr. WALKER. Certainly.

Representative CURRIER. Do the courts hold that a musical composition is included within the term "book?"

Mr. WALKER. Yes; that has been held in England for more than a hundred years.

Representative CURRIER. And sheet music?

Mr. WALKER. That was decided by Lord Mansfield in 1777, in the case of Bach against Lincoln. The statute provided for copyrights only on books, and John Christian Bach sued a man named Lincoln for infringing a copyright upon a sheet book of a certain composition of Bach. The defendant defended against that suit on the ground that sheet music was not a book. Lord Mansfield decided that it was, and that has been the view in England and in this country ever since.

Representative CURRIER. Has that been followed by our courts? Mr. WALKER. It has, so far as the question has arisen at all. Representative CURRIER. Has the question arisen? : Mr. WALKER. I do not remember any case in which it has arisen, but all authors who have written on the subject have taken that view.

Mr. O'CONNELL. Permit me to ask a question. Have the courts decided that a musical composition is a book, within the manufacturing clause, so as to require that the printing or engraving of music sheets to be copyrighted here must be done in this country?

Mr. WALKER. I think not, because I was not alluding to the manufacturing clause. I was alluding to the question as to whether or not a copyright law that should give a monopoly upon a book is broad enough to cover sheet music.

Representative CURRIER. The point I was trying to get at was whether there had been any American decisions broad enough to include, under the term "book" in the manufacturing clause, which is penal in its nature, a musical composition.

Mr. WALKER. No; that qualification was not inserted in your question, and I answer that in the negative at once.

Mr. O'CONNELL. That answers my question, sir.

Mr. WALKER. I do not stand here to advocate any particular client or any particular interest in reference to the manufacturing clause, but I do stand here to explain to the committee, as somewhat of an expert in the matter, the practical situation of affairs. I have said that if the committee desires to give the American workman the monopoly of this it can do so by substituting the word "other.”

I wish to make this suggestion: It may be the committee will not desire to make so comprehensive a statute as that, because Mr. Putnam explained this morning that in respect to certain lithographic work it was entirely inconsistent with the welfare and progress of the art to compel all copyright lithographs to be done in this country.

Now, in respect to the musical engraving the same thing holds true; because, as Mr. Burkan said, it sometimes happens that an opera is composed abroad and is engraved abroad by hand, and the sale abroad is much larger than it is in this country; but the composer is entitled to a copyright in the United States. He ought not to be burdened with the expense, after having engraved all his music abroad, of engraving it here for the sole purpose of producing here the few copies that would be taken by the American market, in any event.

Representative CURRIER. Exactly; that same thing would apply to an English book, however, would it not?

Mr. WALKER. It would apply to any book where the demand in this country was very small. Where the demand for a particular copyrighted article in this country is large, then the suggestion of Mr. Burkan has no application.

Representative CURRIER. Would not that be true as to some music?

Mr. WALKER. It would be true as to some music and not as to other music. In the case of a grand opera composed abroad by some foreign composer, he gets a large market abroad. If you are going to compel that man to have another set of plates engraved in this country as a condition upon which to grant him an American copyright, you will impose upon him a double burden of expense, and that will ultimately fall upon the purchaser.

Mr. O'CONNELL. May I say a word, Mr. Chairman? There ought to be no discrimination in a copyright bill, or any other bill, against any class of American workmen. If it is proper and just to protect the printers and bookbinders, it is just as proper and just as fair and just as necessary to protect the music engravers. If it is essential that the copyright proprietor of a foreign book must have the presswork and printing done here, it ought also to apply to every sheet of a foreign musical composition for which copyright is claimed in this country. If they only print a few sheets, they do not need a copyright. They do not want it. If only a few sheets can be sold, then nobody will go to the trouble and expense of infringing it.

STATEMENT OF MR. B. F. WOOD, REPRESENTING THE B. F. WOOD

MUSIC COMPANY, MUSIC PUBLISHERS.

Mr. Wood. Mr. Chairman, I did not come prepared to speak before you, but I think I can give you some information on the engraving of music.

The CHAIRMAN. We will be glad to hear from you whatever you have to say. Please be as brief as possible.

Mr. Wood. I am not a public speaker, and I can not speak very long.

In the first place, the gentleman said it costs more to engrave plates in America than it does in Germany. I am engraving plates in Germany, and I am engraving plates in America. When I engrave plates in Germany and import my plates and pay the duties my plates cost me more than they do in America to-day. That answers that point. I can prove to you that my plates that are imported from Germany cost me more than the plates I engrave in America.

The CHAIRMAN. Why, then, do you have any engraving done in Germany?

Mr. Wood. For the reason that I can get better work in Germany than I can in America, and I am willing to pay the additional cost. I can prove it to you absolutely by bills, but of course I can not do it to-night. I can answer every point this gentleman has brought up by actual experience.

Representative CURRIER. What is the duty on these plates ?

Mr. Wood. Twenty-five per cent. And would I are to bring plates through without paying duties? No; I should be liable to a very heavy fine.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wood, could you get it here by tomorrow? Mr. Wood. I could not get the bills here. My bills are in Boston.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not mean the bills. Could you get the work that could demonstrate to us that what you have done abroad is better?

Mr. Wood. I can bring up works from the Library of Congress. Mr. Solberg will bear me out, I think. I have copyrighted a great many works for the foreign publishers. I have a great interest in this myself. I can prove to you that I am engraving ten times as much in America as I did when I started. I started by engraving everything in Europe. Now, I am engraving in America nine-tenths of all I engrave, and I am trying to establish a business in London. I have invested capital there that has never yet paid, but if you pass a law like this and cut down the foreigners' rights any more in America we shall be shut out of England, and out of Germany, and can not do a thing in Europe at all. Our only market must be here. We can not enlarge our field and do business in Europe. I go over there with the music of American composers. The work is engraved here, printed here, and sent over there. I can not do if you are going to compel the foreign publishers to engrave here all of their works. I can show you it is impossible. I can bring you proofs. I can bring a bundle of scores that thick sindicating).

We published the libretto of an opera, because the libretto was considered a book here. They thought it might have a success. We printed the libretto and set up the whole plates to comply with your law. We have not sold a single copy, because the performance

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