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Mr. Bloom. You spoke about the high price of labor. This bill provides that an American book publisher must furnish these books at the same prices they can import them into this country for.

Mr. PHILLIPS. Yes.

Mr. Bloom. Therefore the cost of labor and the cost of the book does not enter into it.

Mr. PHILLIPS. That is the commission you would take out of the American publisher for the benefit of the libraries and scientific societies.

Mr. Bloom. You would make that a little bit more severe? Mr. PHILLIPS. No, sir. I am willing to submit to that provision of the bill. We will take our medicine along that line, but it will not amount to very much.

Mr. PERKINS. Is there anyone who knows the amount or number of importations of these books per year, of the kind spoken of by the Library Association?

Mr. PHILLIPS. I could not give you the figures. I suspect it is very small; small compared with the bulk of the business. It may be some hundreds of thousands of dollars, but compared with the total bulk I would say it is relatively small.

Mr. Bloom. In your experience with the book publishers do you meet with the obstacles referred to by Mr. Raney and others, with reference to securing those books promptly?

Mr. PHILLIPS. I doubt very much whether it would be or could be handled any more successfully by them than it is now handled, so far as securing them promptly is concerned.

Mr. Bloom. If that obstacle should remain, as explained by them, then do you not believe they should have the right to get these books when and where they need them?

Mr. PHILLIPS. I do not think they would get them at once.

Mr. BLOOM. If it should be as Mr. Raney says, that they are going to be handicapped in the delay in securing these books, do you not think they should have that privilege ? Time, evidently, in the matter of education, seems to be the essence of the whole thing. If it can be arranged so the libraries of the United States would be able to secure those books, do you not believe they should have the right to get them where they can get them and when they want them?

Mr. PHILLIPS. They can at present get them that way. It may be difficult somewhat in going about to do it. As I said, it seems to me this difficulty is the penalty we pay for living in this country. The question is, how far you are going to waive that claim. You might waive it to the extent of not getting them. You might waive it a little further where some of the larger libraries would be able to pick it up in a week, perhaps. I doubt whether it would be much more than that. The delay would not be serious. The difficulty of getting new books would not last very long. I can not see how it would be of any great advantage to waive that provision. I do not know what the writer of the bill had in mind. It is not beneficial to the American producers of books. There is no doubt about that.

Mr. BLOOM. Or the manufacturers.

Mr. PHILLIPS. In other words, if it is to handicap the foreign edition, it should be in favor of the American editions. If there is no great demand, you can not help the English edition, but would handicap them in favor of the American edition. Is not that what you want?

Mr. PERKINS. It applies more to highly technical works and things of that sort. You think the objections they have raised are more apparent than real, do you not?

Mr. PHILLIPS. I do not think they will find as many difficulties as they think they will.

The CHAIRMAN. May I ask you a question?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Let us take a concrete case. Suppose Doctor Raney or any one of these gentlemen who have testified desire to obtain a technical book of some kind, would they write to your company for that book!

Mr. PHILLIPS. And as quick as the Lord would let us we would supply them with the information where they could get it.

The CHAIRMAN. If you did not have the book you would immediately give them information where they could get it?

Mr. PHILLIPS. If we could possibly find it.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you think there would be much trouble about knowing where the book could be found?

Mr. PHILLIPS. Not much.

The CHAIRMAN. That information is available to the book publishers of the country?

Mr. PHILLIPS. There are a great many catalogues available. You can usually run down a book with reasonable promptness. I should say these gentlemen are probably more familiar with these catalogues than I am, but I do not think they would find much difficulty in ascertaining where any book they wanted could be secured.

The CHAIRMAN. You think the difficulty is more imaginary than real?

Mr. PHILLIPS. It seems to me it is. It seems to me it is. And that is not going to make so much trouble as you might fear but, basically and fundamentally, you get right down to this question of whether you are going to publish books under American conditions or not. That is what you are thinking about. How much are you going to whittle off of it? I think America is committed fundamentally to that issue. I think that all of us have to suffer under it.

The American publishers might very much like to purchase some of those books abroad, but you have it in that clause, and I am inclined to think I agree with it. I have had some rather sharp discussions with some very good friends as to whether it ought to be required of American publishers to print all their illustrations in this country. You require it in this bill, and I can not exactly see why, if you do that, any portion of the business of particular interest should be taken out. Some one said this morning that 75 per cent of our individual universities serve our industries. Is it not pretty nearly true that 75 per cent of those industrial universities are paid for by that industry? You have got to support the thing that supports the institution. Never forget that. The

money for our great educational system in America comes from our great American industries. And our great American_industries have been-I hope I am not getting in wrong with any Democratic members of the committee —

Mr. BLOOM. There are very few of us here.

Mr. PHILLIPS. Our great American industries have been filled up under protection. That is what we are up against. We are all trying to work together to build up America, and you can not do it if you put burdens upon us.

I do not want to criticize the libraries, but in the great bulk of the book business, after all, the library portion is rather limited. A book that sells 10,000 copies does not sell an awful lot of them to public libraries. The very expensive books that sell for $40 or $50, scientific books, sell comparatively few except to large libraries.' Those books are supported by collectors and men of technical standing who are interested in technical subjects and all that sort of thing:

Mr. Bloom. Do you not believe we should give some consideration to the idea of entering into the Berne convention? Is not that the most important thing at this time?

Mr. PHILLIPS. That is the most important.

Mr. Bloom. If there should be a little hardship upon one or the other of the parties directly concerned, the thought that the committee should bear in mind is the thought that we should enter into the Berne convention as soon as we possiby can.

Mr. PHILLIPS. The best answer I can give to that is this: You have not heard me say anything about my special interest in anything.

Mr. BLOOM. Ño. I have about political parties, though.

Mr. PHILLIPS. I could put into this bill 500 things which would benefit my firm in five minutes, and some of them would interest us an awful lot, but I do not propose to speak for any special issue in this bill. I want to see protected the fundamental principle of copyright, the right of the author in everything he creates, and in every part of everything that he creates.

Mr. BLOOM. Do you believe in automatic copyright?

Mr. PHILLIPS. I do. I think the man who makes a thing owns it just as much as the man who builds a boat owns it, or who builds a house owns it.

FURTHER STATEMENT OF M. L. RANEY

Mr. RANEY. May I ask one question? The CHAIRMAN. Very well. Mr. RANEY. Why repeat? Why the trans-Atlantic and American editions? Why make this book twice? Do you stand for that reproduction in the manufacture and importation of any other article of commerce? The book is our sine qua non. That is the one article of commerce we handle. We are buying them at the ends of the earth. Why should we not buy them in the original, just like the manufacturer likes to buy his articles wherever they originate. You care for your American industry in such cases, not by stopping the importation of a desired article from abroad but by putting a tariff on it. Now, from time immemorial, from the foundation of our Government, we looked that problem squarely in the face and said that,

though that is the way to facilitate the increased use of American books as against foreign books, it is not a good investment for the Government to put a tariff on books intended for educational institutions.

Mr. BLOOM. We are not putting a tariff on it.

Mr. RANEY. If you want to reverse that position, do so; but that was the way they handled it. Here is the way that works out. The Encyclopædia Brittanica is published in a recent edition abroad, and by copyright in this country, under the manufacturing clause, we had to have a complete set of American plates. The original plates made at great cost could not be shipped here for the printing of the American edition. The extra sheets struck off from those plates in England could not be brought here as originally manufactured and secure American copyrights.

The whole job had to be done over again at a cost, officially reported, of $200,000. That was $200,000 that you and I paid for, in every copy we bought of that work. We had to go down into our jeans that much deeper because of the remanufacture work already done in the country of origin. Suppose the press of the Washington Post this morning should have been stopped after 25,000 copies had been printed, and the whole thing sent back to the pressroom to do it over again. That is what you do with the books.

Mr. Bloom. Let me ask you about the Encyclopædia Brittanica. The edition of the Encyclopædia Brittanica that was published in this country was a better edition and sold at a lower price than the English Brittanica sold in England. Is that not a fact?

Mr. RANEY. I do not know.

Mr. Bloom. It is a fact. It was originally published by the Western Book & Publishing Co. at Chicago at a lower price than it was sold in England, and it was a better book.

Mr. PERKINS. If that were a fact, that would not dispose of your argument, would it?

Mr. Raney. Not at all. I contend that it still cost us more than if it had been published in England. I do not care which side of the water it is published on, when you have to publish an extra edition at that additional cost it costs us just that much more money. It could have been reproduced over there at merely the expense of paper and presswork, not of typesetting. That would have reduced the price on both sides. It would have cost the English less.

Mr. Bloom. Are you acquainted with the propaganda going on in England, “Let us be British subjects and buy goods made in Great Britain "?

Mr. RANEY. “British goods are best."

Mr. Bloom. Yes. I am a little bit for you, but in some of your argument I am against you. Why not say the goods made in the United States are the best, especially when we can get them at a lower price?

Mr. RANEY. It does not answer the question of the necessity of double manufacture.

Mr. Bloom. But you get it at the same price, or a lower price.

Mr. RANEY. But that price would be still lower if it were made once, and not twice.

Mr. Bloom. No. It may be higher. It would be just the reverse.

The CHAIRMAN. It is now 20 minutes past 12. If there are no objections, we will recess until 2 o'clock this afternoon.

(Thereupon, at 12.20 p. m., a recess was taken until 2 p. m.)

AFTER RECESS

The hearings were resumed at the conclusion of the noon recess. The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order.

STATEMENT OF VICTOR S. CLARK, EDITOR THE LIVING AGE

Mr. CLARK. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I want to speak about an aspect of this bill that has not, as far as I know, come before you, and that is the effect it is to have on our periodical publications. Mr. Bloom. Whom do you represent?

Mr. CLARK. I am editor of The Living Age, of Boston, one of the Atlantic Monthly publications. This bill, if enacted as at present framed, would put us out of business. During the past six years we have spent over $150,000 developing an old publication not exclusively, by any means, with the expectation of making money out of it, but partly with the public service object in view.

This bill involves legislation that does not appear in the text. Part of the virtual text in this bill is the Berlin convention of 1908. That convention is a convention drafted between governments where publishing conditions are not comparable with those in the United States, whose relations with each other are entirely different than the relations between the United States and Europe.

The periodical business of the United States, I dare say, in circulation, in investment and importance is greater than the combined periodical publication business in two or three and, I think, possibly all four of the principal nations involved in the convention. If you make that convention a part of the law of the United States, just as it stands, you are proceeding exactly as the Senate would have done in going into the World Court without any qualifications, or as we should have done in going into the league. That may be an excellent thing to do, but we are adopting legislation as a part of our legislation containing regulations that have been designed for European conditions without asking to have any say whatsoever in the character of those regulations. In other words, we are taking other peoples' say so and saying simply yes.

Now, the periodical publications of the United States probably take more foreign material and employ more material of foreign authors altogether than those of any other country. German publications publish nothing by French authors, and French publications publish nothing by German authors. We publish a great deal of both, directly and indirectly, and very much British material.

That is of two classes-
Mr. WEFALD. What do you mean when you say “indirectly”?

Mr. CLARK. In connection with book criticisms and theatrical productions. When a theatrical paper in Berlin covers a Parisian pro

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